why do you like them?

[mebeforee]

This is maybe an analytical question about why you (and I, lol) like Frasier and Niles Crane so much. As a little background, I'm a writer who is currently in a postgrad CW program, so my interest in this is not accusatory or anything (because I also love these characters) but genuinely interested in what is different about Frasier and Niles from the VAST majority of privileged characters in fiction. Most fiction tends to represent wealthy/privileged characters in a very negative light. They are seen as spoiled, petty, and shallow, and generally play as antagonists or foils to the protagonists of whatever story they're in. (Of course this isn't a RULE, there are a number of exceptions, but generally they are antagonists - especially in more modern literature and film/tv).

One of the very curious things to me about this show is the way we love and sympathize with characters that are so snobby. This wouldn't be so surprising if Frasier and Niles were shown to be heroic or virtuous people, but in watching and rewatching the episodes of the series it's clear that Frasier and Niles are both clearly shown to be shallow and snotty in terms of class, and Niles in particular is also very spoiled by his life of luxury from Maris' money. They look down their noses on a lot of (in their minds) lower class interests, and are openly concerned about their image in the social circles of the elite wealthy community. But somehow the show manages a level of sympathy for these two men that is typically not even attempted, much less achieved.

I am really curious about the reasons that all the people here love these characters. I know where my own affection for them originates, but I don't want to assume that I am in line with everyone. Right now I'm writing a novel that is focused on a (fictional/fantasy) society that is in the midst of a revolution, and much of the conflict is based in class conflict and the steep oppression between the upper classes and the lower ones. The protagonist characters are really varied in class origin and I want to establish the different lifestyles and mentalities between people raised with such different means and opportunities. But it's really important to me that the "upper crust" characters on the protagonist side don't seem totally disgusting to the people reading the story, I want them to be likeable in spite of their class issues and occasional snobbery. Something about the way Frasier and Niles are portrayed overcomes the instinctive dislike that people have toward judgmental attitudes about money.

If you are curious about what I think on this issue, I will happily share my theories with you, but at the moment I am more interested in what all of you think. We all love these characters even though they have some very clear traits that are usually used to make characters seem unlikeable. What tips the scales for you, that overcomes their negative sides?

[PistolPoet]

I have to say I don't actually like them for being that way. I like other sides of their personalities, but I despise their elitism and snobishness - or rather, I would, if the show wasn't a sitcom. As it is, their snobbery gets them in all sorts of hilarious situations, so they're forgiven . What I like about the two of them is the fact that they're well educated and well read and have a wonderful vocabulary (especially Frasier). But the way they look down on others is something I've never really liked about them. I've often wanted to slap Niles as hard as I can.

[Frasiertime]

I like Frasier and Niles because deep down they are good people at heart who would like to live a good and happy life . I also like that all the main characters on the show love each other in their own special way.

If they didn't truly want to live a good life, I wouldn't like them. But I forgive them their snobbiness and actually enjoy them for it because they are very funny and entertaining in their search for happiness and because they all love each other.

[Patrick]

I have to say I don't actually like them for being that way. I like other sides of their personalities, but I despise their elitism and snobishness - or rather, I would, if the show wasn't a sitcom. As it is, their snobbery gets them in all sorts of hilarious situations, so they're forgiven . What I like about the two of them is the fact that they're well educated and well read and have a wonderful vocabulary (especially Frasier). But the way they look down on others is something I've never really liked about them. I've often wanted to slap Niles as hard as I can.

I concur with all of this. I like them as characters but definitely not as people. I may sympathize with them when they are in a really bad situation but that doesn't go any further than that, like Frasier himself once said, It's a "family of man" sympathy, nothing more. I wouldn't want to be friends with people like them in real life nor do I think I could.

[mebeforee]

Thanks for the replies, guys, I was a little worried that people would be insulted by my question because this is a fan forum and (in my experience in the past, lol) sometimes fan forums are not very willing to talk about the less flattering aspects of their fave characters. But since I'd seen people discussing some of their worse moments already I thought it would be okay, I'm glad it was!

I agree that part of the appeal is that they have a desire to be good people and do good things, even though they are kind of crippled by their poor self-awareness and layers of neuroses. I think it also really helps that characters like Roz, Daphne and Martin play such a prominent role in the show. Because anytime Frasier and Niles really get going, these people are not afraid to knock them down a few pegs and prove that they are just as smart and capable as they are without the snobby 'veneer' The show also backs away from showing the society circles TOO much, and when Niles or Frasier interact with their classy friends they almost always fail spectacularly at being really accepted by them. (Think about every party they ever attend...) They try so hard but never quite get there, which gives them a little underdog sympathy.

But it's still interesting to me that the show is so successful at least at getting watchers invested in the characters, even if they don't like them on a logical level. I don't think I could be friends with them in real life either, Patrick, in large part because Niles would think every item of clothing I own is 'off beat' and they would be appalled that I would rather drink a $10 bottle of wine than to spend $40 on one since I usually can't tell the difference between the cheap stuff and the expensive stuff. Shockhorror!

And I agree with you Frasiertime, that they are very funny and they all love each other. That affection they have for one another (even with the snide jokes and sometimes open insults) goes a long way to making them seem nicer. And like I said, I have some upper-crust characters in my own writing, but they are kind of displaced and are fighting for the 'good' side (from the view of the novel anyway). I think it's a good source of tension between the characters because of their very different outlooks and motivations, but I would much rather them come across like Niles Cranes than Draco Malfoys, you know?

[Frasiertime]

I don't mean to say I would like to be friends with them in real life. I like them as tv characters for the reasons I said.

TV sitcom characters are likeable as long as they want to live a good life, are really funny and really like each other on the show. If you think about all the successful sitcoms, they have all these things in common.

I don't think one can really compare sitcom characters with the same characters playing a dramatic role. In a drama, they wouldn't all like each other and some of them might do very mean things to each other. As sitcom characters, I love them.

[mebeforee]

I understand what you’re saying but I disagree a little on your last point… I think the different genres can be compared, there’s lots of overlap. Whether it’s a drama or a sitcom, a lot of very imperfect characters are endearing because of their intelligence and humor, and especially their intentions. And drama does need some comic relief, the audience needs a break from intense emotional scenes or it can get unbearable. Some writers can manage that super heavy tone, but I think it’s good to have some humor even in a drama so that we have a moment to breathe. Sitcoms also go into drama occasionally, and Frasier’s no exception there, they have plenty of genuinely emotional moments and even whole episodes that are more drama than comedy, like the one where Niles is hospitalized. I know people might not like the break in format and dislike the episode because of that, but the characters still work as themselves even when the tone is different.

So really I think the aspects of them that make us like them as characters can be applied in any number of genres. The main difference becomes whether the characters learn from their mistakes, like a drama which is going to be more concerned with the emotional journey and the development of the individual. Comedy tends to downplay that, the characters in Frasier have a sort of amnesia when it comes to learning lessons. Frasier’s relationships aside, there are loads of problems he could have easily prevented if he remembered, ‘oh yeah, three weeks ago this happened and I should have done…’ and been a little more honest without being defensive (tell the date that you were in contact with your ex-girlfriends because you wanted to find out who was sending you anonymous gifts, pick up the cellphone you think is yours and say ‘hello, sorry, I dropped my phone,’ and wait for the response to see if the voice on the other end matches who you were speaking to ten seconds ago). But that wouldn’t be funny so of course the show doesn’t do that! In a drama you could explore things that way, but unless they’re a complete caricature of a person (like Jean-Ralphio on Parks and Recreation), the basic qualities of a character can usually be used in different ways across genres.

You definitely have a point that in a drama they might not like each other, or would do mean things to each other. But I think that Frasier and Niles really do some crazy things to one another anyway… I have two brothers and we tease each other a lot but if we treated each other the way Frasier and Niles did, there wouldn’t be any relationship at all between us. It’s implied in the show that Frasier and Niles weren’t really on speaking terms before he returned to Seattle so I guess the writers are aware of that, but it’s a sitcom so they seem to just forget what their brother has done/said/sabotaged for them even when it’d be totally unacceptable in real life. And of course I wouldn’t want to duplicate the Crane brothers, the hammy theatrics that make them so much fun to watch would be totally outrageous in a drama, but I think the things we like about the Crane boys can still be useful for me to think about when I’m writing

[mebeforee]

Woah, that looks a lot longer than I meant it to be! Sorry, caffeine makes me rambly

[Frasiertime]

You make some very good points and you sound like you are a very good writer. I believe we like and forgive characters like Frasier and Niles because they are on a sitcom. If the sitcom has the three ingredients I mentioned (funny actors and writers, good character at heart, and a strong like or love for each other), then we will always forgive character flaws.

We forgave Archie Bunker for almost everything he said because it was a sitcom and the three main ingredients were there. Think about any sitcom that appeals to you and the same is true.

I don't feel I could forgive a lot of what Frasier and Niles say and do if they were in a drama. Who in the world would they be to judge others the way they do? Those types of characters are needed in a drama to make the show interesting with great plots and stories. No one really likes the mean guys, they like what they do for the show.

There's always good people in a drama to balance out the bad ones. I don't think the bad ones balance out themselves.

It's completely different in a sitcom (imo).

[CatNamedRudy]

No long involved answer from me. I like them because they make me laugh. And unlike Patrick, I would be friends with people like many of them in real life. In fact, I have friends like each of them in real life. They may not be perfect but that's why I like them.

[Patrick]

Let's see:

Frasier: Try as may, I don't have any friends whose people skills are so defective that they can't be with people who have simple tastes or are so clumsy that end up offending the people who's feelings they were trying to spare. Definitely, I don't have any friends like that.

Niles: I don't have any friends that look down their noses at anything that doesn't live up to their hoity-toity standards or marry someone for the money and prestige, or are so boorish that they make fun of a way a woman dresses or lives to her face while thinking that they are gentlemen. The latter is definitely a deal breaker for me and even a jaw breaker if that woman happens to be someone close to me.

Martin: I don't have any friends from the extreme right or that are so cheap that they still begrudge paying for their pauper daughter in law's wedding after twenty years! Or do other things of that kind.

Roz: I don't have any friends who would lie to my face (period but let's continue) and not even feel remorseful in the slightest. I don't have any friends who would do something like borrow my car, sully it and then teach their OWN DAUGHTER to lie TO ME about it. Thank god! I don't have any friends LIKE THAT!!!

Daphne: I guess she's ok. Not great, but ok.

To say nothing about Bulldog or the others of course.

And try as may, I don't see anything wrong in not having any friends like these!

[mebeforee]

I don't see anything wrong with not having friends like them, or for acknowledging that they would be difficult to like in real life. I agree on the points you gave about them, and of course these are exaggerated traits for the sake of comedy and that's alright. They're not real people so it's not as if we can hurt their feelings... and most of the characters that I love in fiction are people I would never be able to deal with in real life. Dr House, for example, or Sheldon Cooper. I can love them for up to an hour, with all their snark and pettiness and selfishness and dysfunction boiled into plot-related bitesize pieces. But imagine going for coffee with one of them, when their needling and judging and belittling would be directed at you personally. Because that's probably how it would be. Just like if I went to a party with Niles and Frasier, they would probably not approach me but they would speak in low tones to one another, scandalized that I was wearing jeans and sneakers instead of a cocktail dress

Characters on TV tend to have significant issues with interpersonal relationships. I guess because it's more interesting to watch a character struggle than to watch a happy day where nothing especially noteworthy happens, which is what people's real lives are like. They can't be too savvy socially or they would be constantly changing up the cast, as they make new friends, get new jobs, find new lovers. And if that happens the audience never really gets to know the characters and they lose interest, because it all has to fit into half an hour of comedy or an hour of drama. It's a whole 'status quo is god' rule of TV that is made much easier if the characters consistently fail socially, typically by being total douchebags to those they consider 'outsiders'. And if the outsiders are also jerks, it has an added bonus of giving the audience a little wish-fulfillment, because who doesn't wish they had something super clever and insulting to say to a person that is totally rude to them, or wish they could just not care what others thought of them, or whatever. And it's a lot of fun to watch! But it's not fun to receive that kind of treatment, so I don't see a problem in saying that you can like a fictional character that, if you met them in your own life, you would probably not tolerate.

[CatNamedRudy]

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it either. I just happen to think that the character flaws we see on a TV show are exaggerated and there are many, many people who have the same flaws as them. Just not to the same extreme. And yes, some of my friends have character flaws.

[Frasiertime]

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it either. I just happen to think that the character flaws we see on a TV show are exaggerated and there are many, many people who have the same flaws as them. Just not to the same extreme. And yes, some of my friends have character flaws.

If your friends are half as exaggerated in their flaws and half as funny as Frasier and Niles, then I'd like to get to know them too! Of course, you're right, take away the exaggeration and we all know (and probably like) people like them. The same with the situations they get involved with - it's just everyday stuff exaggerated.

[Moon-Crane]

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it either. I just happen to think that the character flaws we see on a TV show are exaggerated and there are many, many people who have the same flaws as them. Just not to the same extreme. And yes, some of my friends have character flaws.

If your friends are half as exaggerated in their flaws and half as funny as Frasier and Niles, then I'd like to get to know them too! Of course, you're right, take away the exaggeration and we all know (and probably like) people like them. The same with the situations they get involved with - it's just everyday stuff exaggerated.

I'm in this camp. We have to see the characters' flaws exaggerated, and often, because it's a long-running, fast-paced, funny, sitcom.

Every person on this Earth has character flaws. Everybody's been rude to somebody else at some time or other. We all act like an ass from time to time, even with the best of intentions. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

Anyway, you can't just focus on the negative examples of the characters and dismiss the equally common positive traits.

[welshben23]

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it either. I just happen to think that the character flaws we see on a TV show are exaggerated and there are many, many people who have the same flaws as them. Just not to the same extreme. And yes, some of my friends have character flaws.

If your friends are half as exaggerated in their flaws and half as funny as Frasier and Niles, then I'd like to get to know them too! Of course, you're right, take away the exaggeration and we all know (and probably like) people like them. The same with the situations they get involved with - it's just everyday stuff exaggerated.

I'm in this camp. We have to see the characters' flaws exaggerated, and often, because it's a long-running, fast-paced, funny, sitcom.

Every person on this Earth has character flaws. Everybody's been rude to somebody else at some time or other. We all act like an ass from time to time, even with the best of intentions. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

Anyway, you can't just focus on the negative examples of the characters and dismiss the equally common positive traits.

I totally agree. I really can't believe that you don't have any friends who haven't lied or looked down their noses at people. Like M-C said we all do it and act like an ass from time to time, sometimes without realising we are doing it. If you haven't or your friends haven't then you have lived a very sheltered life, no offense meant.

[Eddie2012]

I totally agree. I really can't believe that you don't have any friends who haven't lied or looked down their noses at people.

That reminds me of a friend of mine, who could not believe her friend from university was enjoying bowling... Her (more or less) exact words were 'How can she enjoy bowling - I mean, she's an academic!'
Words failed me. It was also nice to hear that for me as I am a non-academic. Maybe I should take up bowling, seeing that it is the right sport for people 'of my class'...

[Patrick]

You'll have to forgive me but I am a little confused here. Is any of you calling me a liar or someone who's lived a very sheltered life? I never said or even implied that my friends were perfect but they definitely don't have the same kind of "imperfections" that are displayed by the main characters on the show. Maybe I am a little more picky about whom I choose to be friends with or maybe I am just lucky but it so happens that none of my friends display the off-putting qualities that possess the fictional characters of the show. Of course if we stretched things to an extreme, if we did some elective surgery on each and everyone of these characters, if we chose not to see what's bad about them and exaggerate their positive qualities then maybe even a slime-ball like bulldog would seem acceptable but I don't see any point in doing that. Either we discuss the truth of a character or we talk about something else but it makes no sense to hyperbolize about a person, be it a fictional or a real one.

[welshben23]

You'll have to forgive me but I am a little confused here. Is any of you calling me a liar or someone who's lived a very sheltered life? I never said or even implied that my friends were perfect but they definitely don't have the same kind of "imperfections" that are displayed by the main characters on the show. Maybe I am a little more picky about whom I choose to be friends with or maybe I am just lucky but it so happens that none of my friends display the off-putting qualities that possess the fictional characters of the show. Of course if we stretched things to an extreme, if we did some elective surgery on each and everyone of these characters, if we chose not to see what's bad about them and exaggerate their positive qualities then maybe even a slime-ball like bulldog would seem acceptable but I don't see any point in doing that. Either we discuss the truth of a character or we talk about something else but it makes no sense to hyperbolize about a person, be it a fictional or a real one.

I apologise, but that's what it looked like in your original post. Like I said it wasn't meant to be a personal attack on you.

[Eddie2012]

I don't think anyone is saying anything in particular about anyone in this thread.
It is just about the comparision between 'fictional characters' and 'reaal life people'

[Moon-Crane]

I don't think anyone is saying anything in particular about anyone in this thread.
It is just about the comparision between 'fictional characters' and 'reaal life people'

Yep. I can't speak for anyone else, but, just to be clear, my post was about people in general and certainly not about anybody specific.

[mebeforee]

It is just about the comparision between 'fictional characters' and 'real life people'

Yes exactly, though I would be very happy to hear some of the positive qualities that people are talking about in their friends/the characters. I agree that at least in the context of TV these characters have many positive qualities, because the way fictional characters behave really isn't accurate to real life. We filter things in a different way when watching a show (just look here or here to see what I mean) so I don't think that Frasier and Niles come across as bad people in the show, but in real life I probably would find them very abrasive (not that they would be interested in spending time with me anyway, lol, we don't have much in common).

But really what I was hoping for in this thread was for people to share some specific things about the characters that you think are especially positive or redeeming qualities that make them likeable to you, so please if you are talking about friends who share qualities or saying that the good outweighs the bad (which I agree with), I'd really love to hear what in particular you are thinking about!

[PistolPoet]

But really what I was hoping for in this thread was for people to share some specific things about the characters that you think are especially positive or redeeming qualities that make them likeable to you, so please if you are talking about friends who share qualities or saying that the good outweighs the bad (which I agree with), I'd really love to hear what in particular you are thinking about!

What I like about them the most (and what makes Frasier so special) is the fact that they have a thirst for knowledge and refinement. Setting aside the fact that their refinement lead them to snobbery, I really like how knowledgeable they are and how open they are about the fact that yes, it's ok to have a wide vocabulary and be excited about a Japanese figurines exhibition. Even when they were kids, they got bullied a lot, but they still stuck to their "nerdiness" (for lack of a better term). Too many real people today (let alone TV shows) almost apologise for being eager to learn and improve themselves, or have to hide it for fear of being ridiculed.
I also like their strong ethics and principles (even though, for the sake of comedy, they sometimes have to break them). I like the fact that they aren't static characters; they change, they grow, they learn from people around them (look at how their relationship with Martin develops over the years). I like their optimism (Frasier (almost) never gives up on finding a woman, for example) and their ability to enjoy small things (I'm aware that their dinners are awfully expensive, but they are still just meals, and they still get very excited about them ). They can also be very kind, generous and caring, all redeeming qualities imo .

[frasier floyd]

(Off topic but the book you're writing made me think of Anna Karenina since I recently read it- it may be a good reference for upper/lower class contrast and presenting the upper class in a way that the readers can enjoy/relate/sympathize with them in spite of their faults and great privilege.)

I've watched Frasier on Netflix so much lately that I'm quickly learning all the good and ugly sides of the characters, especially Frasier. Now if this were real life, or even a drama rather than a comedy, I might not enjoy the people or show half as much. But since they each are so funny, their character defects (hypocritical, lying, selfish, judgmental, etc.) are mostly forgiven. Defects aside, I watch the show and like all the characters just because they're all funny, witty and entertaining. They also all have their sweet, vulnerable, and lovable moments too, so you can appreciate them the more you watch. Even if you didn't like/love to hate Frasier and Niles, I think you could still get some enjoyment from the show just watching them get into all these awkward situations because of their elitism/ ethics / desperation for sex. That's why I love watching, even when I love to hate Frasier.

In reality, most people have positive lovable sides along with their faults. That's what makes people complex, and is true for characters too. Their virtues and faults all make them realistic and three dimensional and interesting. As long as you're open minded enough to accept or overlook their shortcomings, you can enjoy all the good they have to offer.