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Frasier & Lilith in Cheers

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Frasier & Lilith in Cheers

Postby Allystare » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:43 pm

It seems to me in watching Frasier that Lilith is often excessively demonized and portrayed as a harsh character. Now I understand that part of that is for comedic effect (all the references to her possessing some witch-like or demonic qualities, or the atmosphere heralding her descent by becoming dark), and also in order to establish Frasier as a sympathetic character with a troubled past and his trouble with relationships. So part of it is exaggeration. And even then, part of the laughs are accurate since Lilith is quite cold and quirky.

However, even when they aren't going for laughs, in those serious or semi-serious references to Lilith's past, they make her out to be a domineering, bossy, and harsh person, in her Cheers past. Now, I have watched all of Cheers but that was a long time ago, and I haven't revisited it, but in there, aside from that saga where Lilith cheats on Frasier, I thought their marriage was a pretty happy one. Sure, she was still cold and robotic, but they seemed happy. Am I imagining things, or did they really reinvent Lilith's past to be more harsh? What are some moments aside from the cheating saga in Cheers where Lilith is harsh in a Maris-like manner (though obviously Lilith isn't selfish and narcissistic like Maris is, she can be quite caring, but she is often compared to Maris)?
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Re: Frasier & Lilith in Cheers

Postby Roverman » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:09 pm

She was certainly bossy, I was rewatching the episode where the bar burns down in Cheers (The Little Match Girl?) only last week and Frasier rather magnanimously wrote out a large cheque, making this big grand speech (just like most days then!!) and then it ends with the killer line that it requires Lilith's sig nature as well, he claims he will be bold with her and make her sign it, Sam however knows better and tears the cheque up knowing full well Frasier will never get Lilith to sign it.
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Re: Frasier & Lilith in Cheers

Postby Allystare » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:56 pm

Lilith is certainly determined, but there's a tendency in Frasier sitcom to portray her as quasi-Maris. Even in the bossyness department, I never thought she was on that level.
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Re: Frasier & Lilith in Cheers

Postby Patrick » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:54 am

There is that episode in Cheers (It's one where Cheers is fighting that other bar "olde town tavern" and of course they get their asses kicked) during which Lilith keeps mentally torturing Frasier for no good reason (mostly by refusing sex) and ends up humiliating him in front of the entire bar. It really showed her to be a total bitch and it was rather early in their relation...

Also the very first time Lilith and Frasier met she downright treated him like crap even though he was visibly depressed...


So I am afraid she got that image immediately, if anything she mellowed a little in her Frasier (the show) years.
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Re: Frasier & Lilith in Cheers

Postby Roverman » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:14 am

I wonder if some of her potency was diluted in the Frasier years by the fact she appeared on average once a series whereas in Cheers she appeared for 82 episodes from 1986-1993, roughly about 4-5 times as often.

Two basic opinions of Lilith can be formed by TV viewers, there's the opinion created by seeing her character in Cheers first and then seeing her make fleeting but important appearances in Frasier, on the flip side there are those of us who watched Frasier first, saw this woman who is mentioned a lot more than she is seen and in the event kinda gets built up into something she may not actually be, regardless of how she was in Cheers.

The character must have changed somewhat, to be married and become a mother and then lose that marriage by running off with another man has to have some impact, remember when Lilith found that note from Frasier and flew all the way to Seattle to discuss reconciliation? This seems like a softer side than the one who won't sign big cheques, or with-holds sex to get what she wants from Frasier. Later on we see her fall apart when her second marriage fails, and towards the end of the Frasier series she appears once more as she has decided she wants another child. On those sad and poignant occasions to whom does she run (or fly) to? Frasier Crane. These episodes show to me that Lilith has developed and matured from that bossy 'powerwoman' we saw back in that Boston bar.
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Re: Frasier & Lilith in Cheers

Postby Allystare » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:46 am

Roverman wrote:
Two basic opinions of Lilith can be formed by TV viewers, there's the opinion created by seeing her character in Cheers first and then seeing her make fleeting but important appearances in Frasier, on the flip side there are those of us who watched Frasier first, saw this woman who is mentioned a lot more than she is seen and in the event kinda gets built up into something she may not actually be, regardless of how she was in Cheers.


This is an excellent way to put it. She is quite caring in Frasier. Still, the jokes heralding her arrival and when she is not there tend to make her into something else. That's what peaked my curiosity.

The character must have changed somewhat, to be married and become a mother and then lose that marriage by running off with another man has to have some impact, remember when Lilith found that note from Frasier and flew all the way to Seattle to discuss reconciliation? This seems like a softer side than the one who won't sign big cheques, or with-holds sex to get what she wants from Frasier. Later on we see her fall apart when her second marriage fails, and towards the end of the Frasier series she appears once more as she has decided she wants another child. On those sad and poignant occasions to whom does she run (or fly) to? Frasier Crane. These episodes show to me that Lilith has developed and matured from that bossy 'powerwoman' we saw back in that Boston bar.


Yes, I think she might have mellowed. That's certainly a theme in Frasier, the evolution and maturation of Lilith and Frasier's relationship. That's why their last encounter is such a nice episode.

Patrick wrote:There is that episode in Cheers (It's one where Cheers is fighting that other bar "olde town tavern" and of course they get their asses kicked) during which Lilith keeps mentally torturing Frasier for no good reason (mostly by refusing sex) and ends up humiliating him in front of the entire bar. It really showed her to be a total bitch and it was rather early in their relation...

Also the very first time Lilith and Frasier met she downright treated him like crap even though he was visibly depressed...


So I am afraid she got that image immediately, if anything she mellowed a little in her Frasier (the show) years.


Thank you, I will have to revisit those episodes.
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Re: Frasier & Lilith in Cheers

Postby heartofmotion » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:59 am

I have only see a couple of episodes of Cheers so can't really comment on this, but I think in Frasier we get to see Lillith from Frasier's perspective, and naturally this changes and evolves as the series progresses.

Also Lillith is the 'dark goddess' in mythology and astrology ('a Hebrew name for a figure in Jewish mythology, who is generally thought to be in part derived from a class of female demons' - Wikipedia) and so neatly represents Frasier's probably biased view of his ex-wife rather than the reality.

Similarly with Maris who never gets to represent herself at all! We know her only from Niles', Frasier's and Marty's perspectives.
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Re: Frasier & Lilith in Cheers

Postby PistolPoet » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:36 pm

heartofmotion wrote:I have only see a couple of episodes of Cheers so can't really comment on this, but I think in Frasier we get to see Lillith from Frasier's perspective, and naturally this changes and evolves as the series progresses.

Also Lillith is the 'dark goddess' in mythology and astrology ('a Hebrew name for a figure in Jewish mythology, who is generally thought to be in part derived from a class of female demons' - Wikipedia) and so neatly represents Frasier's probably biased view of his ex-wife rather than the reality.

Similarly with Maris who never gets to represent herself at all! We know her only from Niles', Frasier's and Marty's perspectives.

I'm sorry, I know this is off-topic, but we actually do see Maris enough to know she's no angel: she vanishes without saying anything to Niles in The Last Time I Saw Maris, she throws a bucketful of water on Frasier and sets her hounds on him, she orders the waiter to throw drinks in Niles's face in Voyage of the Damned etc. But I see what you mean about Lilith, when I started watching Frasier, I could see from the first time they mentioned her that there was a whole legend of her icy personality, and it continued throughout the show.

I have only seen a few episodes of Cheers as well, but I prefer not to compare the characters. Kelsey Grammer and the writers themselves said that Frasier changed a lot between the two shows (and if he did, then so did Lilith), so I'd rather just see them as... not exactly separate personalities, but definitely incomparable, since it was a conscious decision by the writers to take a different direction with Frasier.
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Re: Frasier & Lilith in Cheers

Postby Allystare » Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:03 pm

Yes, it's different, Frasier/Lilith vs. Niles/Maris. Even accounting for personal biases, we know enough about Maris to know that she is an abnormal and narcissistic bitch. Lilith is different; we know that the Crane men have a biased view of her, and although she too is abnormal and probably somewhat cold, she still has a caring side to her that is fleshed out as the series progresses. For the most part, even though it failed, Frasier's marriage to Lilith had many happy moments, and at certain points at least, it seemed as if it was a marriage between equals; it was never this way with Maris, it was fundamentally an idealized illusion on Niles' part. Maris was always a self-absorbed and domineering bitch, she had no redeeming qualities, and ultimately her relation to Niles ended unceremoniously, whereas Lilith and Frasier are able to sustain a relationship as parents even after their divorce, and it eventually blossoms into a friendship even, based on mutual understanding and respect -- this never happens with Niles/Maris.
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Re: Frasier & Lilith in Cheers

Postby PistolPoet » Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:16 pm

Allystare wrote:Yes, it's different, Frasier/Lilith vs. Niles/Maris. Even accounting for personal biases, we know enough about Maris to know that she is an abnormal and narcissistic bitch. Lilith is different; we know that the Crane men have a biased view of her, and although she too is abnormal and probably somewhat cold, she still has a caring side to her that is fleshed out as the series progresses. For the most part, even though it failed, Frasier's marriage to Lilith had many happy moments, and at certain points at least, it seemed as if it was a marriage between equals; it was never this way with Maris, it was fundamentally an idealized illusion on Niles' part. Maris was always a self-absorbed and domineering bitch, she had no redeeming qualities, and ultimately her relation to Niles ended unceremoniously, whereas Lilith and Frasier are able to sustain a relationship as parents even after their divorce, and it eventually blossoms into a friendship even, based on mutual understanding and respect -- this never happens with Niles/Maris.

Yeah, can you actually imagine Maris being happy that Niles is moving on with his life? I honestly can't remember one good thing about her, apart from the fact that she apparently dressed well :).
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Re: Frasier & Lilith in Cheers

Postby Eddie2012 » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:31 pm

I watched 'Room Service' last night, and I wonder why Daphne should have such a strong (negative) reaction towards Lilith' quick visit?
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Re: Frasier & Lilith in Cheers

Postby PistolPoet » Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:06 pm

Eddie2012 wrote:I watched 'Room Service' last night, and I wonder why Daphne should have such a strong (negative) reaction towards Lilith' quick visit?

Yeah, I don't really remember Lilith ever being unpleasant to Daphne. I guess it's just part of the legend of Lilith - she's supposed to be so cold and intimidating that very few people can stand her :). Or Daphne wants to stay away so she doesn't get another of her Lilith-related psychic headaches.
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Re: Frasier & Lilith in Cheers

Postby Patrick » Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:54 pm

Yeah, I never thought that Lilith was that bad, especially compared to some of the other characters that appeared either in cheers or in Frasier.

Carla for example kept abusing Lilith again and again for years and yet Lilith only responded once. It was a good one though. I think it’s the episode where Lilith leaves Frasier to live in a bubble ( :D ) As a parting gift to Carla she calls her a bunch of names.

And Carla's comment was: "That was rude!" :lol:
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Re: Frasier & Lilith in Cheers

Postby icecubeinheels » Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:51 am

I've always thought Lilith's character was played up quite a lot. It bugged me how Frasier would always describe their marriage as basically a loveless disaster. Up until the very end, the last year, they did pretty well. Well, let's see, one person mentioned the cheque incident in The Little Match Girl (or whatever that ep was called) but I'm not sure if that counts because Lilith didn't even appear in the episode. It was all Frasier. Another incident that someone mentioned was in Cheers Fouls Out where she witholds sex... but I don't think it was all that bad. She made it clear by the end of the episode she was just having some fun with Frasier, she wasn't actually mad at him. I don't remember her humiliating him in that episode. They may have been thinking of Cheers Has Chili where Frasier says, "Whipped- proud of it." However, Lilith did not put those words in his mouth or even ask him to say anything. The only other time I can think of is in Uncle Sam Wants You where Lilith states that they "can't make love in the morning" (it sounds a little less extreme in the original context of the conversation.)

What should be understood about Lilith is that was a very different kind of character. How she came off was probably 5x more extreme that she intended. She was socially awkward and often felt uncomfortable in Cheers. Outside of the bar, she and Frasier seemed to have a great time going to the opera, renting movies, eating out at nice restaurants, going on vacations, spending time together with their son, etc.

Aside, the only other "negative" Lilith moments are when she was upset for some reason, so I don't think they really count (e.j. when she threatens to throw a dish at Frasier in The Crane Mutiny... *note: he had just implied that he'd cheated on her; when she calls Frasier a "spineless bastard" in Smotherly Love *note: she was on edge all week because her crazy mother was visiting...)

I don't think you're imagining it. I believe that they had a happy marriage and loved each other. Again, they were just very different, quirky characters so their relationship was unconventional. It still worked for them... for the most part. At least it lasted "7"+ years. On Frasier's own show, he was lucky to keep a woman for three weeks.
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