What irritates you about 'Frasier'?

[hansenkd]

Again, the Renata Tebaldi line was written by a gay man--and it's funny. Chalking all of this stuff up to the "rule of funny" gets around all these issues. Of course, then there's the slippery slope of whether it's OK for gay people to make gay jokes. Like, is it OK for black people to use the "N"-word? There are those, like Bill Cosby, who are vehemently opposed to it, but most hip-hop artists consider it necessary for their craft.

This is why it's such a good thing that the gay writers/directors were responsible for those episodes! I had forgotten about the scene at the beginning of the proposal--also a hoot!

Martin is remarkably camp a lot of the time--the women's glasses, etc.--but I would never label him as homophobic. Poking fun at your straight sons who behave in stereotypically gay ways is not the same as ridiculing somebody who is actually gay (and here the analogy would be more toward, say, a gay baseball player than to a gay man who likes opera and dresses flamboyantly).

[DiceMan]

Just some lame jokes from time to time, and some lame characters. No personal beefs with any jabs though, it's comedy

[TylerRodan]

Martin is remarkably camp a lot of the time--the women's glasses, etc.--but I would never label him as homophobic. Poking fun at your straight sons who behave in stereotypically gay ways is not the same as ridiculing somebody who is actually gay (and here the analogy would be more toward, say, a gay baseball player than to a gay man who likes opera and dresses flamboyantly).

That's the subtle homophobia of it though. It wouldn't be "poking fun" if gay wasn't seen as something bad. Assumptions like, because Frasier likes fancy things means that he likes to have sex with men, therefor I will make fun of him liking fancy things as code for calling him gay *is* homophobic. It is not excusable because it's funny (and whether it's funny is debatable), and it has nothing to do with groups of marginalized people reclaiming words from the majority. It's a cheap shot and a very base attempt at humor, and saying that it's OK because a writer/director is gay does not make it non-prejudiced.

It just bothers me because the show has demonstrated that can be sophisticated in it's humor- so I am always disappointed when it takes the low road and relies on pejorative stereotypes.

[frasier floyd]

I agree, I think Tyler said it best.

[DiceMan]

Also I'm in the "not liking Gertrude" camp like a lot of people

[frasier floyd]

Yeah she's like fingernails on a chalk board. Does she have any funny lines or contribute to any good scenes/episodes?

[hansenkd]

Martin is remarkably camp a lot of the time--the women's glasses, etc.--but I would never label him as homophobic. Poking fun at your straight sons who behave in stereotypically gay ways is not the same as ridiculing somebody who is actually gay (and here the analogy would be more toward, say, a gay baseball player than to a gay man who likes opera and dresses flamboyantly).

That's the subtle homophobia of it though. It wouldn't be "poking fun" if gay wasn't seen as something bad. Assumptions like, because Frasier likes fancy things means that he likes to have sex with men, therefor I will make fun of him liking fancy things as code for calling him gay *is* homophobic. It is not excusable because it's funny (and whether it's funny is debatable), and it has nothing to do with groups of marginalized people reclaiming words from the majority. It's a cheap shot and a very base attempt at humor, and saying that it's OK because a writer/director is gay does not make it non-prejudiced.

It just bothers me because the show has demonstrated that can be sophisticated in it's humor- so I am always disappointed when it takes the low road and relies on pejorative stereotypes.

Yeah, I totally disagree. If people continue down that road, you won't be able to laugh at anything at all. Everything that's funny lampoons something. Take the Mormons for example. They have been remarkably mature about the "Book of Mormon" musical, and the only thing I've heard from them complaining about it is the profane language, not the lampooning. If you want to see an example of people who can't laugh at themselves--well, just imagine how many people would be under a death threat had Parker and Stone composed "Koran: The Musical."

If we're going to become all moralistic about gay writers making fun of themselves and if we're going to enter a bizarro world where we call militantly gay writers and directors (not to mention two of the lead ACTORS, along with two regularly recurring ones) "homophobic," we're going down a road that leads to nothing less than the complete and total death of comedy.

[frasier floyd]

I can only speak for myself, but I think the comments about homophobia are not to call the writers/directors/show homophobic but to just recognize these subtle kinds of attitudes that were purposely included into the show as a result of placing characters like Frasier and Niles into the context of society. I don't hold this against the show and I'm also not offended by its presence (I've been watching the horribly offensive family guy since I was 13) but it is there. Some people may be more sensitive to it than others, but I think at the end of the day it's safe to say we all still love the show.

[Eddie2012]

It wouldn't be "poking fun" if gay wasn't seen as something bad..

That implies that if someone is poking fun at something it means he or she sees it as something bad.
So the writers are not only homophobic, but also genuinly hate the British, the Germans and the French. And dogs of course. And so forth. Interesting.

Assumptions like, because Frasier likes fancy things means that he likes to have sex with men, therefor I will make fun of him liking fancy things as code for calling him gay *is* homophobic..

I don't even pretend to understand this sentence...

[Patrick]

So the writers are not only homophobic, but also genuinly hate the British, the Germans and the French. And dogs of course. And so forth. Interesting...

That's a bit simplistic and also disingenuous. You don't see people being shamed by their father for example like when Martin gave his stupid speech about liking coffee, because someone mistook them for a British person or a German or a French... You don't see people being branded closet British or closet German and so forth because of their dislike for sports or their liking of opera or arts in general... There's a difference between being made fun off in a lighthearted way and being depicted like some inferior kind of human being that is being tolerated only behind closed doors.

[Eddie2012]

There's a difference between being made fun off in a lighthearted way and being depicted like some inferior kind of human being that is being tolerated only behind closed doors

Ah okay, I see what you mean now. I think. I am still struggling with the message that when poking fun at someone by hinting he/she might be (a closet) gay, it must automatically mean I find homosexuality wrong.

If my colleagues often ogles our boss and I playfully hint she might (secretly) want to see more of him than spreadsheets - does it automatically mean I'd find this, or even an affair, wrong? Because it's frowned upon by many?

Or, in other words: Could it be that the sensitivity around the whole subject stems from the assumption that all non-gay people find homosexuality wrong per se?

[Patrick]

There's a difference between being made fun off in a lighthearted way and being depicted like some inferior kind of human being that is being tolerated only behind closed doors

Ah okay, I see what you mean now. I think. I am still struggling with the message that when poking fun at someone by hinting he/she might be (a closet) gay, it must automatically mean I find homosexuality wrong.

If my colleagues often ogles our boss and I playfully hint she might (secretly) want to see more of him than spreadsheets - does it automatically mean I'd find this, or even an affair, wrong? Because it's frowned upon by many?

Or, in other words: Could it be that the sensitivity around the whole subject stems from the assumption that all non-gay people find homosexuality wrong per se?

Let me put it this way: How often do you see open gay people being made fun of by people implying that they might be straight?

As far as I know: Never.

And yet it happens all the time the other way around.

Take Gil, he's a gay who pretends to be straight while acting gay. He's not the only one, you find characters like that on many shows. How many do you find that act straight and tell everyone that they are gay? As far as I know, not one.

[hansenkd]

Look, the point is that it is gay writers and directors and actors who are responsible for all of this. If they're OK with it, why the hell should we all complain about it? Geez.

[freewill]

Or, in other words: Could it be that the sensitivity around the whole subject stems from the assumption that all non-gay people find homosexuality wrong per se?

Let me put it this way: How often do you see open gay people being made fun of by people implying that they might be straight?

This isn't exactly what you're looking for, but here's an early-season Friends clip where Phoebe is shocked to learn that the gay ice dancer she had been married to for 6 years (a marriage of convenience) is actually straight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMXlt66cU3U

[ProOperaVoter]

I was looking at some of the earlier posts and I realised that women don't like Chesty and men do. I wonder what that reflects :O

[Eddie2012]

What?!? I love my Gil (don't listen to dorsetgirl )

[Patrick]

...
This isn't exactly what you're looking for, but here's an early-season Friends clip where Phoebe is shocked to learn that the gay ice dancer she had been married to for 6 years (a marriage of convenience) is actually straight.
...

Yes, there's also something like that on Just Shoot me, where Nina Van Horn is supposed to marry a man that every one thinks is gay but she seems apparently oblivious to the evidence. Then Elliot Dimauro (Frasier like) tries to tell her that but she explains that she's perfectly comfortable being the beard of the man an sharing the wealth, not to mention that a gay man will let her sleep around without objections etc... Then it turns out that the man is straight and acts gay because of his act, he's a magician with lions tigers and bears oh my (I had to do that one!) when Nina discovers that, she's shocked and breaks the engagement and so the man is perturbed and off camera fails his number with Pamela Anderson (the real one) and a tiger and we're supposed to think that Pamela has been maimed by the tiger... So yeah, I guess this is sort of a counterexample except that in this case its more like someone putting on a black face to play the banjo if you see what I mean. So it's still more of a poke against gays than one against straight people.

[Frasiertime]

The Frasier show dealt with situations of normal, everyday life with characters that were men, women, gay, straight, married or divorced. All scenes that involved a gay person were seen in "typical Frasier Crane" character. For Frasier not to know a gay man was attracted to him (The Matchmaker) is typical of him. Frasier can barely see past his own nose so much of the time and that's what makes the show so funny. What is the difference between not knowing someone is gay and not knowing someone is dating you because she can't afford her own therapist (the episode with Teri Hatcher). It's all true Frasier style, nothing offensive about it (imo)

[PistolPoet]

Not to mention that the writers gleefully employed farce, especially in the earlier seasons, and farce is all about misunderstandings, mistaken identities and lowbrow (often sexual) humour.

[Eddie2012]

Let me put it this way: How often do you see open gay people being made fun of by people implying that they might be straight?

My aforementioned ex colleague, a dancer with effeminate language and behaviourisms, would occasionally have his fun at the expense of people who knew he’s gay by suddenly turning to typical straight male speech and behaviourisms, throwing everyone completely off balance. But I get the feeling this doesn’t somehow count as he was making the joke himself (like the writers on the show).

Look, the point is that it is gay writers and directors and actors who are responsible for all of this. If they're OK with it, why the hell should we all complain about it? Geez.

I go with this; if 5 gay main players don’t take offence, then I – a straight person - will not tell them they’re wrong and take offence on their behalf.

That's the subtle homophobia of it though. It wouldn't be "poking fun" if gay wasn't seen as something bad.

There's a difference between being made fun off in a lighthearted way and being depicted like some inferior kind of human being that is being tolerated only behind closed doors.

Do I live in some kind of a parallel world? Is the bit in bold a fact in your environment? Because that is not the case in my world. I do have 3 gay colleagues in my team of 10; several others in the wider department, we had 3 gay marriages and one engagement over the past 2 or 3 years, my ex box was gay, my boss-boss is bisexual and so is the husband of a former colleague. Same goes for my circle of friends, the two of them sometimes overlapping. Yet the atmosphere is relaxed and we joke at about everything and everyone and one’s sexual preference has about the same importance as one’s preference of broccoli over spinach. (And don’t think I don’t experience homophobia. If I were to tell for example my family back home I was in love with a woman, they would probably break off all contact with me. Their shots at gay people are clear and even if they are concealed in a subtle ‘joke’ any idiot can see the homophobia in it. And those ‘subtle jokes' are nothing like on Frasier)

Incidentally, this reminds me off an ‘incident’ from my early twenties. When I met my best-friend-to-be for the first time, an unfortunately rather long period of singledom had just started for me. After about 2 years my friend – who was never without a boyfriend for a day – jokingly suggested I might not be interested in men to begin with. I took it for what it was: a suggestion I may want to consider my wider options, wrapped in a joke (I should mention we have friends who are indeed gay). Should I tell her next time that she is actually a homophobe for having made that joke? And as I took no offence in that joke - was I politically incorrect for not being offended by the suggestion I might be (a closet) gay? I am asking because my reaction does not seem to exists in other people's worlds...
What a bizarre world. Or just my own (fortunate) personal environment (family aside).

(slightly amended after first posting as last part may have been misleading)

[frasier floyd]

I'm sorry if I've mentioned this before, but Frasier's relentless desperation for love/sex can get very old and creepy/irritating. I'm watching Frasier the Grinch now and while he at first ignores the stripper Bulldog brings in, he then goes back and kisses her! Who makes out with a stripper!? The audience seemed to like it as they all clapped, so I guess I may be in the minority on this one. I just imagine strippers as the kind of women you watch-but don't touch- at clubs or bachelor parties (except maybe during a lap dance?). Can't you get kicked out of a strip club for trying to touch the women? I actually think it would have been more understandable if he'd gotten a lap dance rather than kissed her! That's like cuddling with a prostitute! It just crossed the line between sexy entertainment and love, which is really kind of sad more than anything.

I don't mean to hate on Frasier or offend anyone by saying this though. He drives me crazy a lot, but he's smart and he's got a good heart so it's just strange when he acts out like that (like when he boards a plane to a different country for a strange woman- that's pretty creepy/stalker-like). His less extreme attempts to get with women are more charming and funny to me though!

[hansenkd]

I'm actually more bothered by irrational behavior of the women who storm out on him without considering all the facts or giving him the slightest benefit of the doubt. "Can't Buy Me Love," "You Scratch My Book...," "Frasier's Imaginary Friend," and "First Do No Harm" spring to mind. Not one of these ladies is very compassionate, and in the maddening case of Honey Snow, she led him down that road herself! How was he supposed to know where the line was that could not be crossed? There are even more minor examples, the first two Dates with the Breakup (you know, the first one-hour episode), for example. The women in "Dial M for Martin," "Secret Admirer," etc., etc. All of these women are pretty much b*tches. And then that horrible born-again woman in Party, Party DOES give him multiple chances (which is pretty refreshing) until the big letdown at the end of that episode when we realize that she's not what she seems. I don't think I'd count Regan. She seemed pretty forgiving, and Frasier eventually just gave up with her because so many things went so wildly wrong.

That whole trope is one of my big issues with the show. Although there is a payoff at the end where Charlotte subverts this (the whole point of the grossly misunderstood "Detour" episode).

[Patrick]

I'm actually more bothered by irrational behavior of the women who storm out on him without considering all the facts or giving him the slightest benefit of the doubt. "Can't Buy Me Love," "You Scratch My Book...," "Frasier's Imaginary Friend," and "First Do No Harm" spring to mind. Not one of these ladies is very compassionate, and in the maddening case of Honey Snow, she led him down that road herself! How was he supposed to know where the line was that could not be crossed? There are even more minor examples, the first two Dates with the Breakup (you know, the first one-hour episode), for example. The women in "Dial M for Martin," "Secret Admirer," etc., etc. All of these women are pretty much b*tches. And then that horrible born-again woman in Party, Party DOES give him multiple chances (which is pretty refreshing) until the big letdown at the end of that episode when we realize that she's not what she seems. I don't think I'd count Regan. She seemed pretty forgiving, and Frasier eventually just gave up with her because so many things went so wildly wrong.

That whole trope is one of my big issues with the show. Although there is a payoff at the end where Charlotte subverts this (the whole point of the grossly misunderstood "Detour" episode).

I agree with this, with some notable exceptions though:

"First Do No Harm" the woman was dumped twice and the second time for the most stupid of reasons. Frasier behaved like a real Jerk there.

"Dial M For Martin". Frasier looked like a psychopath there, with his Dad agonizing on the ground and him telling her to just step over him and move to his apartment while putting some music on. The woman would have had to be crazy herself not to be outraged by what she saw.

"Frasier's imaginary Friend" is so so. The woman may have overreacted a little but Frasier behaved like an idiot. He just couldn't let well enough alone. I mean what kind of imbecile thinks that it's more important to prove to his family that he's going out with a beautiful woman than it is to just go out with a beautiful woman? There's enough people bragging about imaginary women around the world to not just enjoy the real thing and cross your fingers that it lasts. That's the way I see it, at any rate.

"Secret admirer". Another one of Frasier's stupid failure, I mean he hadn't even slept with that woman and he was already seeking a way to ruin it. And of course he found it. Remember his last line on the subject. "Either one of you!" Yeah, like that one was gonna work.

Honey snow was a bitch on wheels, I mean, it's almost like she provoked him into crossing A line in order to give him the boot, not to mention the sadistic way she brought on that last line. "not with a bang but a whimper."

"Can't buy me love". The woman was a major idiot. First she forces Frasier to endure her obnoxious lying daughter for hours and then when he got tricked into her web of lies, instead of resenting HER DAUGHTER for lying like that to a stranger, she turns on Frasier instead. I mean if there was a Nobel Prize for imbeciles she'd get it.

Two dates and a break up. The first one, I like dogs so you have to like dogs or I'll hate you. I am vegetarian, so you have to be vegetarian or I'll hate you. "Go to hell, bitch!"

The second one. You had a date with the woman who broke up my marriage! (How the hell poor Frasier was supposed to know that?)

The third one seemed OK though, I don't see how Sherry could have ruined that one, unless she was stupid. After all, Frasier is not responsible if his Dad's dates are a little rough around the edges. Anyway, Frasier seemed to think that it was over since he told Eddie to eat the foie gras or whatever that was on the table.

[frasier floyd]

Wow... has anyone figured out the number of women Frasier has had dates with over those 11 seasons? It seems that his bad dates are never-ending.

[Eddie2012]

I couldn't tell you myself, but I vaguely remember making a list of all women he ever dated not too long ago. Not sure if that was a new thread or added to an existing one though.