"Frasier's Edge" (On My Season 8 Re-Viewing)

[Murphy]

What a load of tedious and witless naval gazing! Aside from the sliver of fascination this episode brings to the dedicated viewer (as it appears to present the show openly commenting on its own comedic inertia), this is almost an insulting exercise in barrel scraping. It’s actually far worse because they’re scraping the bottom of the wrong barrel. Who in God’s name wants to see Frasier bleat at even greater length about his own ill-defined psychological despair, stripped of all the humour and warmth that would have – possibly – made this episode acceptable a year before? Add to that the horrendously poor handling of Daphne’s weight gain, Martin’s grating attempts to massage Niles’ ego and a smattering of unfunny lines by some other people who look just like those characters we used to find so amusing not so long ago. In the defence of Daphne’s Story, the notion to disguise Jane Leeves’ pregnancy by having Daphne suddenly develop an eating disorder was a smart move that could so very easily have been mined for some rich comedic material. Instead they take the notion and drop it into the show without any further thought. Grotesque, when it isn’t being just plain dull.

I’ve been re-watching Season 8 in a concerted effort to be more open minded, having long since decided it was an almost criminal act of vandalism on America’s finest sitcom. It started promisingly. “And the Dish Ran Away with the Spoon” was actually rather good, maintaining the drama/comedy balance established in the previous episode and telling an interesting story, save for the stomach turning antics of Simon Moon. “The Bad Son” had far more amusing moments than I remembered, even if – just like “The Great Crane Robbery” – the episode stops rather than ends. “Legal Tender Love and Care” was a pale imitation of what I would have called an average episode of Frasier, whilst “The New Friend” actually managed to be just funny enough to genuinely be an average episode of Frasier. “Mary Christmas” – I’m sorry to admit – I couldn’t get through. It was so wrong, I had to fast forward. There was no story here worth telling, no jokes to tell and no reason to fashion a sequel based on a character whose only defining quality had already been thoroughly explored. I thought the best thing to do was to press on, but the brutal experience of “Mary Christmas” (even by the fragments I actually watched) left me in no condition to suffer the outrageous self absorption and mirthless blather of “Frasier’s Edge”.

I’ll carry on and I’m certain I’ll find something good to write about the experience. If anything, these two rancid episodes have strengthened my resolve to enjoy what follows and it can’t exactly get any worse so I’m hoping to have something positive to write about soon…

P.S. I forgot all about “Taking Liberties”, which says it all really. It was mediocre, but not outright bad and there were some kind of funny moments. Oh, it brought the Mel’s Revenge Story to a head, so there’s that an’ all.

[Murphy]

“Crane’s Unplugged” concerns Frasier’s mounting frustration trying to maintain a bond with his son who has become sullen and uncommunicative. Meanwhile Roz becomes an emotional wreck. Nothing funny happens. This is starting to hurt. Scene after scene we have to witness Frasier get angrier/sadder to no humorous or interesting effect, whilst Martin is forced to crowbar in some light relief. This is done by John Mahoney having the unenviable task of over-acting something chronic. In fact that’s exactly what’s wrong here. Everything is so forced and overplayed. OK, Martin’s “fork hand!” moment is funny, but it’s just a moment in a 20 minute slab of dull whining. When Frasier and Frederick re-establish the bond that is so very important to nobody watching, it doesn’t feel satisfying because it was so inevitable. Even that wouldn’t bother me at all, really, if the jokes were funny. And I think this may be the first episode where I noticed Daphne’s gradual loss of engaging character traits and steady descent into a bland/boorish abyss begins. Hope I’m wrong. I know others who reckon it started with “Legal Tender Love and Care”, whilst others say it began a whole season earlier, but for me it was here. Holy Moses! David Lloyd and David Isaacs are credited as Creative Consultants on this episode. Baffling.

“Motor Skills” explores the idea of “what if Frasier and Niles turned into smug pricks?” and amazingly manages to make that plot the second most unpleasant thing about the episode. Before I go on, I have to write something positive or I might just kill myself so here it is: The opening car scene is inoffensive and amusing. Now for… oh, dear God… Martin turning psycho. Seriously, the scenes of Martin smiling sweetly as he undermines and dictates to Roz on how to deal with her new dog could be the start of a horror movie.

Within minutes of the Crane boys starting their first mechanics class, Frasier decides to butt in on his teacher to deliver a speech, because that’s just the kind of blind arrogance that Frasier has nowadays. He’s always been prone to overstepping the boundaries of polite humility, but here his self assuredness is contemptible. I’m beginning to suspect there’s a reason Frasier suffers so much more from verbal incontinence as the series progresses; they can’t think of anything funny for him to say so why not just have him talk incessantly until the deluge of verbiage itself becomes the joke? (Yes, this is a bit of a stretch as there have been many, many examples of Frasier’s chatty Cathy routine in the past – back when the show was brilliant. Problem is it was funny then, it ain’t now.) There is a funny payoff to his speech at least; a guy leaves the class. It just isn’t enough to justify Frasier being such a jerk. We then get Niles and Frasier pontificating on the relative merits of associating the workings of a car with the workings of an orchestra, losing track of the lesson as they bicker over the correct analogy. Perhaps, if they were attending the class against their will, forced into the class by a dare from Martin or the disapproval of their girlfriends, this would make sense, but they’re not. They felt embarrassed by their lack of motor skills and voluntarily enrolled in a class, but they can’t bring themselves to listen to anyone speaking that isn’t them? It stinks. Stinks bad. Stinks real bad. It does improve with the sparkplug scene and the plot development of the Crane boys deciding it is a far, far better thing to quit works well as it leads to the very thing that was missing from before – a reason for them to take the class, provided by Martin and Daphne’s approval.

It looks like the plot is back on track but then we get a steaming dollop of Psycho Martin to ruin the effect. In fact the confrontation scene between Roz and Psycho Martin is sickening.

So the episode rounds off with Frasier and Niles having decided to coast through the class, which they’ve decided means act like obnoxious 12 year olds for some reason. (“For some reason” is going to be the catchphrase of these reviews if things don’t improve soon. Well, it’s either that or “It stinks. Stinks bad. Stinks real bad.”) Now this scene follows one I’ve just described as sickening, so in that respect it is preferable because cringing is always preferable to being sickened. Frasier and Niles start sniping at their classmates, sniggering, wallowing in their own newfound immaturity and bizarrely actively drawing attention to themselves when the idea was they were supposed to be coasting through the class. Perhaps it’s too fine a distinction to quibble about, but it doesn’t explain why anyone thought this would be worth broadcasting. The French note might have been funny in an almost completely different context.

Sorry, I really thought I was going to start writing positive reviews but this is actually worse than I remember. I think the best thing to do is take a break and come to it fresh and enthusiastic. Although I'm guessing anyone reading this would rather I just shut the hell up, which brings me to the point of these posts. I'm having a much harder time than I thought I would re-watching Season 8. I'd like to know what you thought of it (whether on first viewing or subsequently). Also, the reason this is on the forum and not part of the reviews section is because I don't want to commit such negativity to that part of the site. I'm hoping to have far more balanced and constructive critiques to post in the review section after I've finished the whole season. This is just a work in progress and open invitation to share your opinions.

[Murphy]

“The Show Must Go Off” I’ve heard described as ‘Worst. Episode. Ever.’ I don’t see it, myself. Sure, the gags about sci-fi and their fans is hardly uproarious (see The Big Bang Theory for eliciting genuine comedy from the same topic), but it’s not bad. Noel’s appearance isn’t really needed, but then neither is Noel who’s gone from sad/funny to aggressive/creepy. And then there’s Derek…

… who is rather wonderful. He delivers a gloriously (and intentionally) hammy performance that justifies the Crane Boys efforts to kill the show. The EMMY was well earned. It’s a tricky proposition, really. Jacobi’s character has to be an awful actor and yet remain plausible as a professional. Science Fiction (perhaps especially on television) welcomes hams and so his career is believable. The Crane Boys failure to remember just how bad an actor he was is skilfully handled and their rose tinted recollections add to the plausibility of the situation. Frasier and Niles’ uninhibited enthusiasm for resurrecting Hedley’s career (with the added bonus of bathing in his reflected glory and the financial possibilities) is great. Suddenly I’m watching Frasier again. The moment when Hedley’s ‘talent’ is revealed, bursting the Crane Boys’ balloon, is exquisite. Everyone is on fine form both in front and behind the camera. The script has almost no fat – perhaps save for Martin’s alligator stuff but it’s a good fat because he’s engaging and funny again. Daphne’s absence doesn’t so much as leave the trace of a hole in the show, supporting some peoples’ idea that it would have been better for her character to bow out at the end of Season 7. I’m not sure, honestly.

The final sequence has more energy and pace then the previous 10 episodes combined. It teeters on the edge of over stuffing the plot at this point, but never falls. So, a funny episode then. What a relief.

[Murphy]

“Sliding Frasiers” might be the most unconventional episode of the show (some could point to “Rooms with a View”, “You Can Go Home Again” or “Freudian Sleep” and they could well be right) but doesn’t exploit the full potential of the premise. That said there are amusing moments and nothing here is actively insulting. Niles and Daphne’s puppy love nonsense (written and played to be irritating/funny but much closer to irritating/boring) doesn’t taint the overall adequacy of the episode. ‘Adequacy’ might sound harsh, but I mean adequate by the standards of Frasier’s better years. In season 8, adequate is a triumph. Nothing here impresses or bothers me enough to write more – except to note that Roz is getting a pretty raw deal this season. When she isn’t being left with next to nothing to do or say, she’s whining like there’s no tomorrow. Was that the situation in season 7 too? I’m trying to think back to the last Roz heavy episode that was any good and I think it was the outstanding “Roz and the Schnoz”, but that was season 5. There must have been better Roz episodes since, right?

“Hungry Heart” is my favourite episode (of season 8) so far. There’s a base level of quality running through this with smart one liners, a strong plot and a subplot that could have been awful (tackling Daphne’s weight problem head on) but manages to match the raised game of everything around it. Kenny isn’t a character I’ve ever managed to feel much affection for and whilst I can’t say I care too much about his plight here, it is definitely his finest hour. Kenny’s Wife, meanwhile, is superb and cries out for return appearances that sadly never occur. It’s a delicate line to draw, Kenny and his wife’s flirtations with infidelity, but both characters get out of this without being portrayed as treacherous or even particularly selfish. Roz gets to be funny! Everyone gets to be funny! Lattes all round!

I seem to have far less to write when I’m not having a right old moan about something. That’s worrying.

[Murphy]

“Hooping Cranes” takes a simple gag and plays it for all it’s worth. Frasier’s jealousy and Niles’ gloating are nothing new but still well played. Roz’s French boyfriend break up scene is very nicely done. The money shot of Niles defying the odds is given the dramatic build up and presentation it deserves. Martin’s euphoric praise of Niles back at the apartment is hilarious (“… and it’s good!!!”) and whilst the payoff scene at McGinty’s is unavoidable, it certainly doesn’t ruin what has been a surprisingly good episode. Surprising because it gathers together a bunch of emotional and comedic beats we’ve seen plenty of time before and plays them out with a healthy measure of skill that keeps the show fresh. Just as with “Hungry Heart” there’s a foundation of quality in the writing which lifts it above the recent garbage. It doesn’t match seasons 1-7, but delivers the goods and that’s all that matters.

“Docu.Drama” starts dull but soon switches to painfully irritating when Frasier is written and performed as a total jerk, again. This is acerbated by Roz who is also written and performed as a total jerk. Because sudden bouts of inexplicable despotic behaviour is hilarious. It doesn’t help that this double whammy of malignancies is presented on a bed of brain numbing tedium – the plot. Roz producing a radio documentary. Frasier working for Roz on radio documentary. Both act like squalid morons. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Like I wrote for “Cranes Unplugged”, everything is so forced and overplayed … except now it manages to be even worse. It’s really odd watching this actually because apart from being incredibly annoying, it’s also utterly pointless. Roz is afraid Frasier will take over her show and so pre-emptively treats him like trash. Frasier rebels against Roz’s authority and attempts to undermine her as best he can. Is it meant to be about self fulfilling prophecies? Because from the way Frasier is acting from the beginning, I doubt Roz could have done anything to prevent him attempting to take over. Except now, thanks to Roz, he gets to revel in his underhanded behaviour. None of which is in the least bit funny. I keep coming back to “forced and overplayed” because it really, really is. The planning scene where Roz and Frasier end up falling out is just bizarre; tempers flare so readily, grudges form in the blink of an eye and it ends up looking like they both came into the room with the sole purpose of having a massive argument.

There’s a subplot about Martin and Niles flying a kite. David Hyde Pierce gets to do some good physical comedy. Martin gets to be a bit of a sourpuss. Well at least you could say that this acts as a timely sedative after the stress of watching Frasier and Roz act like total nutcases.

John Glenn (American Hero) makes a guest appearance. Not funny, not interesting, but then the man means nothing to me so maybe I just can’t appreciate what his appearance here means. Or maybe it was a lame idea for a lame episode. This is so furiously bad; I can’t understand why they did it. I can’t understand why they were allowed to do it. I can’t understand why I’m letting this get to me.

“It Takes Two to Tangle” has a decent idea for a story (lifted from Season 6 and reapplied to Martin) but does have the unfortunate side effect of turning Martin into a randy old man. The relationship between Frasier, Niles and Martin is nicely played in this episode. Pretty light on laughs in the first half, but things pick up at the party scene where Penelope’s son William delivers the funniest lines in the show. Niles’ fake faint is outrageously silly but fun.

Roz’s conversation with the counter guy at Nervosa is weird. She asks for a dirty pan as part of her cover (pretending to be a good cook) as if this is the most agreeable request ever made in a coffee shop. When confronted with the very unremarkable news that they’re out of lemon bars, Roz casually demands they make more, presumably immediately.

Nervosa Counter Guy: I can give you the recipe.
Roz: What am I supposed to do with that?
Nervosa Counter Guy: Bake?
Roz: Is that supposed to be funny?

Roz is deadly serious during this exchange. Genuinely appalled by Nervosa Counter Guy’s sane polite logic, I’m left wondering one thing; when did Roz turn into Karen from Will & Grace? All this grating rubbish aside, this episode manages to hover just under average with nothing too awful and nothing too funny. Oh, a tiny side not – anyone notice how scruffy Niles’ hair has got?

“Forgotten But Not Gone” in which Frasier barges onto the scene and demands everyone’s attention immediately for no good reason. Frasier isn’t in a rush to be anywhere and is fully aware that Niles is making his inauguration speech and yet insists on interrupting. I don’t know why. By which I mean, I know exactly why: it’s another case of the writers painfully contriving a reason for two characters to fall out. It doesn’t work because the only context in which it makes sense is if Frasier is deliberately sabotaging his brother which means we’ve got ourselves another “Frasier Acts Like a Giant Prick” episode. The other members of the wine club are good for some laughs though and the petty bureaucracy of the club itself is amusing, but we’re starting off from a completely bogus premise. Kenny, Gill and Lance get a couple of good lines in before the main plots kick in. One details Niles' inevitable revenge for the opening scene which is boring. Shame because this boring little tale will drag on for what seems like decades. There’s also a tragically misjudged attempt to up the stakes (“former brother!”) that just robs the characters of their grounding in reality. There’s a moment when Niles lets slip his banning of wine club members to call into Frasier’s new radio show was his act of revenge. Frasier pounces on this as justification for his rage, not seeming to realise that Niles has every right to exact revenge. After much pouting and whining, Martin storms in and essentially demands the episode ends. Thanks Martin. It’s interesting to consider if the other wine club members’ interjections (“I move whatever it takes to get us to the bar!” “I second that”) were added to somehow acknowledge on some level that the writers knew the A Plot was this boring. And it is boring. I could watch this after inhaling a pound of cocaine and still be bored. At the very end, Frasier and Niles decide never to return to the wine club. So the only characters that made me laugh will never be seen again.

The B Plot is Frederica, an absurdly voiced cartoon character that you may find funny if for no other reason than she is so bloomin’ strange. Martin’s willingness to suffer tortuous physical therapy so he can enjoy Frederica’s cooking is a funny idea but it goes nowhere. This is happening a lot in this season – the ideas are funny but they have only one joke capacity. But then maybe Frederica’s insane voice and behaviour is all you need to have a good time.

[Murphy]

“Daphne Returns” makes me realise I haven’t missed her. Perhaps that’s a point in favour of the writers or a sign that she doesn’t contribute anything worthwhile anymore. Things get off to a shaky start with Niles and Daphne’s scene in the car. It’s supposed to be awkward and devoid of romance, so in that regard the scene is a success. This is also, presumably, the reason there aren’t any funny jokes there either. Sadly it soon succumbs to what must be the writers/producers’ favourite pastime – hideously contrived arguments. That’s the theme of season 8. Daphne has been seeing a therapist who she clearly has a high opinion of, which disgruntles Niles because it looks like he’s just itching to get her into the sack but that’s not on the cards anymore. Unfair, I know. It’s also because Niles is alarmed that Daphne seems to be of the opinion that he may have been an indirect cause for her eating problem. So Niles gets stroppy in a very obvious, witless way just like all the characters seem to do at some point in season 8.

At the apartment, Roz has told Martin about her book deal which seems odd. Surely Roz should have that restraining order out against Psycho Martin after his behaviour in “Motor Skills”, right? Nope, they seem fine now even though Martin dishes out some more condescending nonsense that veers dangerously close to Psycho Martin territory. Seriously, what happens to Martin when he’s around Roz? No time for that now, because we’ve got that agonisingly contrived argument coming to the boil. Niles decides the best way to celebrate the return of his one true love is to take a leaf out of Frasier’s book and transform into a Giant Prick. Even Martin (part time Psycho) reckons Niles is behaving badly which is the only funny thing about the episode so far. But Niles persists and puts the boot well and truly in, allowing Daphne to get so angry she orders him out of the apartment. And the Gut Wrenchingly Contrived Conflict is achieved. Barf.

What could have been just another flashback sequence of the variety seen in any other sitcom is here made fresh and interesting by having Niles and Frasier actually step into the past. It’s a neat and impressive gimmick but presents two prominent problems. One: it highlights the fall in quality the show has recently taken by reminding viewers just how superb it used to be. Two: it comes with a dose of dreary character examination that returns to the ghastly self absorption of “Frasier’s Edge”, though to be fair it never sinks quite that low. Speaking of the flashback sequence, I’m surprised they didn’t use more clips.

But then it suddenly gets better. After all my wretched moaning about the Contrived Argument/Conflict, it’s another one of these that provides the only bright spot in the whole episode. But here there is a vital difference. Before, the Gut Wrenchingly Contrived Conflicts were crudely executed to provoke some hollow drama – and failed miserably. This time Niles starts an argument on purpose (before, the contrivances always strained to make it seem as if the conflict was a natural development) and the scene is played for laughs. These two differences are crucial to the success of the scene. It’s funny and explores the characters, but mainly it’s funny. “Bad, bad cook”, “God bless you son” the dialogue suddenly takes flight with Niles delivering a great barbed line about Daphne’s supposed psychic abilities. This is a great scene and perhaps the most important one of the whole season because it puts all the baggage and awkwardness of the Niles/Daphne storyline aside, draws a line under it and establishes a new dynamic. Niles and Daphne, finally, are in a relationship (not a storyline).

Oh and Roz has a bad joke for a subplot but it ain’t awful so let’s forget it.

“The Wizard and Roz” is a ‘sort of’ sequel to the horror of “Frasier’s Edge”. Frasier’s mentor, Dr Tewkesbury, starts sleeping with Roz. This upsets Frasier to such an extent he can’t look at Tewkesbury without seeing him wearing Roz’s bathrobe. Yawn. Actually, the one good thing I can say about this is that it’s not as bad as the other time the show uses Frasier’s imagination to provoke laughs (and fails). “Trophy Girlfriend” in season 10 would manage to take this witless notion and stretch it passed breaking point. Turns out Frasier’s miffed that Roz has never fancied him, even though she has (Season 7’s “Hot Pursuit”), but that doesn’t count because… Why exactly? So the entire reason for the plotline is completely redundant. This would be forgivable, perhaps, if it were funny. But no, there’s no funny here. Martin gets pretty close, but that’s more light-hearted rather than actually funny.

Meanwhile Daphne orders Niles not to go to the café because a psychic vision told her something bad would happen to him. He goes, she catches him and he hurts his leg jumping up in fright. Now, these two were moments earlier the happiest couple in the world. They’ve only just recently cemented their relationship, but that counts for naught when Niles disobeys Daphne. Even as he staggers about in real pain, Daphne berates him for failing to do as he’s told. Now, to be fair, Niles did say he wouldn’t go, but I can’t help thinking the writers have suddenly taken a violent dislike to Jane Leeves because Daphne’s a total cow here. There’s been a lot of discussion in the past about the deterioration of Daphne Moon. I noted her gradual loss of humour/engaging personality in “Legal Tender Love and Care”, but it’s in this scene that the transformation takes place. She is horrendous. In the next scene Niles has to hobble into the kitchen to apologise to her, but Daphne isn’t done being an acrid tongued ice queen. This revolting moment leads into the next part of the B Plot; the test to conclude once and for all if Daphne’s psychic. She isn’t because there’s no such thing as psychics so … oh, look - another completely redundant plotline. You know, I might be just as sick of saying this as you are of reading it but … It’s boring and not funny. Also, notice how Niles stops Daphne hearing the results of the test and bluffs about wanting to get to know her over time. It’s actually because he’s just discovered Daphne’s an emotional cripple who needs to believe she’s psychic. So there’s one of the few funny things about Daphne’s character that’s served us so well since “The Good Son” suddenly mutated into a rather sad tale of a little Northern girl clinging to a delusion to stop herself cracking up. Bravo guys. How about next week you write a show about Martin liking dogs because as a child he strangled a puppy and now he’s overcompensating?

“Semi Decent Proposal/A Passing Fancy” brings us the return of Lana, the one joke character from season 7. But she’s not alone because … drum roll please …

Ladies and gentlemen, the man you’ve not been waiting for … the death of credibility for the show, its writers, its producers, its cast and anyone who didn’t resign the instant they clapped eyes on him … that’s right … it … is …

Kirby.

A stupid teenage character, stuffed to the brim with all the modern slang parlance, aversion to originality and unyielding devotion to every joke that’s ever been told about a stupid teenage character in sitcom history. To misquote Frasier himself “this is like watching a loved one being autopsied”. There really isn’t much to say about Kirby once you get that I believe him to be the sickest joke ever played on the show’s audience.

So what about the story? Well, Frasier is now on his fifteenth thousandth occurrence of love at first sight. (I know it’s a sitcom, they can’t exactly have Frasier develop amorous feelings over time, they’ve only usually got 20 minutes so never mind) This is also a double length episode because … No, there isn’t reason. There’s barely enough plot for one half of a regular episode. It’s odd, then, that they should have Frasier fall instantly for Claire because they actually have the space here to build towards it. Instead they write in endless filler because … No, there isn’t a reason. Anyway, in order to get close to Claire, Frasier must tutor Kirby so that Lana will put in a good word for him. Pretty un-involving stuff really, but more comedy has been made from less in the past. Trouble is we’re not in that past, we’re in season 8. One Joke Lana gets to do her one joke (suddenly shouting – hilarious). There’s a car ride scene between Lana and Frasier that just won’t end. It’s interminable. Why couldn’t there have been a writers’ strike? There’s a party scene where One Joke Lana does her one joke again and says she’s “sick of complaining”. I know how she feels. As the plot crawls along, it confounds me how little energy is going into this episode. Everything is so tired and slack. And Claire is nothing to get excited about so God knows what all the freakin’ fuss is about.

Martin, Niles, Daphne and Roz get a subplot where they have to sit in each other’s company and nothing funny happens which is only a bad thing because we’re in their company too. But, wait, it gets worse because they play a game which culminates with Roz looking like the filthiest piece of trash you could ever fear to encounter. What’s odd is she looks incredibly proud of herself for looking like the filthiest piece of trash you could ever fear to encounter. And I’m not talking hot filthy, I’m talking diseased filthy. I’m talking Two Girls One Cup filthy. And Roz appears to revel in this. I’m not sure I’ll be able to look at Roz again without vomiting just a tiny bit. There’s also the sleeping groove idea which lets Hyde Pierce do some good physical comedy and rings true about relationships.

And then Kirby appears and I can’t remember happiness. I’m sure there’s an interview or DVD commentary from season 1 where the writers prided themselves on not having any stupid characters just for the sake of it. I can’t remember happiness and they surely can not remember pride.

[mickeba]

This harkens back to the "which seasons are worst debate". Some really hate 8, I'm not one of them. It's the beginning of the downwards spiral of 9 and 10, the worst two in my view. Not a fun episode, a pretty tough one as I recall. The whole season was okay, just not up to previous standards, but okay. I wish they'd have ended it at 7 when Niles and Daphne were leaving the parking lot in the Winnebago. Enjoy the rewatching.

[mickeba]

BTW Murphy, I thought Kirby was pretty funny at times. Especially when they took down the kids from "Teen Scene."

[CatNamedRudy]

BTW Murphy, I thought Kirby was pretty funny at times. Especially when they took down the kids from "Teen Scene."

I didn't like Kirby at first but he grew on me. And I totally agree about the Teen Scene stuff. I loved him in that episode.

[Murphy]

BTW Murphy, I thought Kirby was pretty funny at times. Especially when they took down the kids from "Teen Scene."

I didn't like Kirby at first but he grew on me. And I totally agree about the Teen Scene stuff. I loved him in that episode.

I'm glad people do like him. In fact I hope I'm in the minority when it comes to my opinions on Season 8. Teen Scene, is that in Season 9? Maybe by then I'll have got over my problems with Kirby, but I doubt it. Sad thing is, I would probably be fine with Kirby if he were in any other sitcom. It's just being in Frasier that grates me.

[Murphy]

“A Day in May” takes everything I whinged about in the past posts (‘everything’s so forced and overplayed’, ‘contrived’, ‘tired and slack’) and decides to aim lower with an episode that is beyond pointless, beyond worthless, beyond insulting. It’s just wrong. Forget about not being funny, that’s a pipedream these days. First off Frasier spends the day with One Joke Lana because … well, who needs reasons when we’re having this much fun. And talking of fun, here’s Philip. He’s deeply depressed in the way only bad sitcom characters can be deeply depressed: by talking constantly in a low nasal whine. I’ve met depressed people, not a chatty bunch. Still, if it’s funny then who cares? Oh, right … not funny. This is toxic to funny. Frasier gets mistaken for someone with mental health issues … and whilst watching this travesty I begin to suspect I might have the same problem.

What’s happened to Niles? Now I know he’s always had this sad, geeky side to his personality since day one but wasn’t that often balanced out by ready wit and a sharp mind? Where’s his wit and mind gone because this season he’s just been pathetic, even when he’s got the girl he’s been pathetic. I can only think of one reason – the writers can’t write the sizzling smart dialogue that Niles used to display. They just can’t, so they write for the only characteristics that’s left – the pathetic, emotionally stunted adolescent. Explains “Motor Skills”, that kite rubbish, getting sick in the lift, getting stuck in the stairwell, not being able to lift Daphne, wearing that stupid t-shirt etc … these all attest to his wimp persona, but where’s the zingers? The confidence? Where’s the rest of Niles? Because I’m watching him sit on a park bench and mumble woebegone reassurances to Eddie before awkwardly convincing Daphne never to come to the park again. This is because he’s jealous of the seemingly more handsome, athletic, jock-type guy who Daphne has befriended. This is more than wet, he’s drowning in his own despondency.

Martin can’t forgive the guy who shot him. Next week we discover Martin likes beer.

Just as with Niles, I suspect the writers have realised they can’t match the quality of what came before so aren’t even trying anymore. The show is starting to look like a run of the mill drama, except without the drama. It’s just people on screen, saying and doing things that elicit no reaction from the audience. A complete failure on every level.

“Cranes Go Caribbean” and we’re at least back in the neighbourhood of real Frasier. The performances are staggeringly forced and I don’t understand why anyone would want someone as skittish as Claire in their lives, but after “A Day in May” I’m just happy the pain’s stopped. There’s some clunky farce when Daphne overhears a conversation and jumps to a conclusion rather than clarifying what Niles and Frasier are talking about because after 8 years she reckons jumping to a conclusion based on a half heard conversation is the best way to get information. But this isn’t atrocious, just mediocre. Oh, no! It’s Roz, her dog and Martin… phew, Martin didn’t turn Psycho. Maybe things are getting better. Oh, no! It’s a car scene with Frasier and One Joke Lana… phew, One Joke Lana didn’t do her one joke. Hey, maybe things really are getting better. Frasier complains, a great deal. Fair enough it sounds like he’s got some things worth complaining about. Unfortunately this seems to be the main story of the episode – Frasier whining. OK, so it’s mediocre.

Season 8 has some fine moments but mostly it’s dross. Soul shrivelling claptrap that lurches into the offensively bad in places and no matter how much I try (honestly, I did) I can’t escape gigantic black cloud of depressing incompetence that hangs over this season. Yes, there were bright moments (The Show Must Go Off, Hungry Heart) but the vast majority of the season not only suffers from a lack of wit or anything remotely amusing but worst of all from a total mishandling of the characters. Roz is by turns an emotionl wreck, a desperate sexaholic or just plain dull, Niles has lost all his wit and intelligence leaving him floundering with only his sadsack routine, Daphne's turning into a monster and Martin's developing a split personality. Frasier has some pretty ugly moments veering from the self absorption of "Frasier's Edge" to being a total prick in "Docu.Drama" but on the whole his character survives the slaughter. Obviously the only thing to do is never watch this season again, or at the very least cherry pick the decent episodes. I thought I was going to discover I had misjudged this season on re-watching and I did. It's far, far worse than I thought. Oh well.

[mickeba]

I think the general problem with S 8 is that after putting Daphne and Niles together, which was the natural way to go and seemed like a good idea (cos that's what the viewers "wanted") they didn't know what direction to take the show, and creatively it didn't go off as planned. So we saw Frasier go for the tried and true formulaic tools that all the lesser shows went for. By S 11, they even had a baby! Huzzah! That's why I 'd loved to have seen it end at 7 seasons. The creativity that made Frasier such a great show was beginning to dry up and I'd love to have had 7 great seasons than 7 great, 1 marginal, 2 horrible, and a solid finale season.

[Murphy]

Personally I think Daphne should have left the show at the end of S7. After that point something goes very wrong with the character. She becomes increasingly nagging, short tempered and surprisingly snobby. I remember when this originally happened and I had the thought that the writers were doing it deliberately (not - as I rather facetisously suggested in a previous post because the writers had taken a dislike to the actress) to show that it was Niles unwittingly transforming her by his grovelling devotion. I honestly thought there was going to be a scene when Frasier realised that Daphne was turning into Maris and wondered whether Maris herself had started out as a perfectly warm and pleasant human being too. It made perfect sense to me at the time, especially after Mel - a character who'd been introduced as a rather fussy, slightly snobby character that very quickly became a devious control freak. Oddly enough, this didn't happen and everyone carried on as usual as if Daphne was somehow not an unbearable bucket of bile.

Resolving the Niles/Daphne situation of the past seven years seems to be the most popular explanation for Season 8's nosedive in quality, but I think it actually played only a small part in the problem. Even storylines and individual scenes that don't include Niles or Daphne nor even refer to them are more often than not of a far inferior quality in terms of writing. Character, plot, dialogue - they all take a crippling hit. What I don't understand is how Creative Consultants of such demonstrable talent as David Lloyd and David Isaacs seemed to have had no positive influence. Then there's Bob Daily, Dan O'Shannon, Mark Reisman, Rob Hanning, Lori Kirkland, Jon Sherman, Sam Johnson & Chris Marcil - all writers with good work to their credit in S7 and yet the next year they can't cobble more than three above average episodes between them. A couple of them must have noticed something was off by the time they were squeezing out stinkers like "Legal Tender Love and Care".

Has there been any public admission regarding the quality of the show post S7 from the writers/producers/cast? I'd be fascinated to know what they thought.

[mickeba]

I think resolving Niles/Daphne was entirely the problem. So much of the comedy of Frasier was about Niles/Daphne. And Daphne was always such a mismatch to Niles that in marrying them, they created "compatiblility" and that meant changing Daphne. Daphne was Bananarama, Niles was opera, and they injected her into his world. And it just didn't work, which is why everyone is so down on Daphne S 8-11.

[Murphy]

My final (for now at least) thoughts on this are that there were many reasons the show tanked so resoundingly in Season 8. New, awful writers whose toxic skill for comedy seem to have overwhelmed the few remaining scribes with talent. A consistent series of poor decisions in terms of plot and characterisation. Some of the story ideas are just mind numbingly bad. Choosing to resolve the Niles/Daphne situation by having them both transform into giggling children was perhaps one of the worst creative choices the show ever made. Forced, overplayed and painfully contrived scenarios plagued this season (and would continue to during Season 9 and find itself expressed to the fullest at the end of Season 10). Add to that the lack of any quality jokes or one liners that the show could be relied upon to provide even when attached to a less than involving story and it makes up for a pretty depressing slab of television. Oh, and Martin's infrequent Pyscho behaviour didn't help.

After viewing Season 8 (with the original intention of dispelling my long standing opinion that it was bad!), I pressed on quickly to Season 9 to try and get the taste out of my mind. Thinking about it now, watching Season 9 straight after suffering 8 is probably the best way to do it. Season 9 is quite bad, but I just didn't have the energy to get angry about it the way I had watching 8. So I settled back and let each episode limp across the screen, not laughing once. Season 9's one saving grace is that it is so bland, you'll have a hard time remembering the worst parts. Season 10 is a real pickle of a season. It really looks like the Producers/Writers have woken up and realised just how much damaged they've inflicted on the show and are trying like mad to make amends. There's an energy and spikeness to the dialogue and performances that's been missing for two years. The stories have a bit of meat and potential to them. It's still an awkward, tedious show most of the time, but there are clear signs of improvement. Some whole scenes are very funny, if slightly marred by the now customary tripe either side of them. I started noticing a gradual swing in the Bad/Good Scene ratio per episode. Some episodes didn't have any truly awful aspects at all such as "Bristle While You Work", "Don't Go Breaking My Heart", "Fraternal Schwinns", "Roe to Perdition" and one episode ("Fathers and Sons") even managed to be a perfectly rounded slice of classic Frasier. Shame it all came crashing down with the worst episodes the show ever produced - "Some Assembly Required" "A New Position for Roz" that saw the show's recent habit for turning characters into unexpected nut-jobs.

My post has strayed well off topic now, I know, but it seemed relevant as a sort of coda. I've now reached Season 11 which is like stepping out into sun shine after years crawling through the Underworld. Suddenly the dialogue zings, the plots are smooth and well paced, characters stay in character and all is right with the world. It's a fantastic reward for the viewer, although I shall never take that journey ever again. In future, when I fancy a Frasier marathon I shall be skipping Season 8 & 9. Season 10 has lots of problems but it actually makes quite a good pick up point from the end of "Something Borrowed, Someone Blue".

[mickeba]

There's nothing wrong with taking the whole journey, no matter how bad 8, 9 and 10 are at times. Though I don't think 11 is one of the better seasons. It's a big improvement over 9 and 10 but still it's just proof that our fave show has aged, not well at times. Seth McFarlane of Family Guy said that 7 seasons is the right length for a show, cos you really start to see a decline after that. In the case of Frasier I agree. 8 seasons would have been ideal to end it. Or, take the best of 8, 9, 10 and 11 roll them into two final seasons and go out with 9. I was sad during 9 and 10 on NBC cos I watched every week, and was quite unsatisfied, much of the time. But, the fact that these posts generate so much response really shows the love and commitment this audience has.

[Murphy]

I can't tell if Season 11 is a brilliant season or a good season that looks great because it follows three years of ... well, I've written enough about that. It's certainly on a par with Season 7 for me. I remember years ago there being an interview where Kelsey Grammer said he wanted to match somebody's record for playing the same character on TV. It then cut to the executive producers saying they were onboard with that idea; they might even have said that would bring them up to Season 11. I remember being thrilled at the prospect of four/five more years of the show which was, at that time, the best TV show I'd ever seen. Looking back, there's an overwhelmingly convincing argument to be made that the show should have ended with Season 7 - it certainly wouldn't have taken much re-writing to round things off. I think I've even stated I'm in favour of that in a previous post. However, I'm not entirely sure. Obviously we would have been spared the better part of 70 atrocious episodes in a row (though there are exceptions) but we would also have missed out on Season 11, which I'm currently really enjoying. Hmm, no. No matter how good Season 11 is it ain't worth three years of hell. Frasier should have ended with the conclusion to Season 7. Of course, they would have had no idea that things were about to go very wrong for them so it's not as if I begrudge them continuing without the benefit of hindsight. Although, I know a couple of fans who genuinely believe the cast/crew knew that the show was about to start decling in quality but didn't care because they'd all signed new contracts for stacks of cash. That's just crazy.

[Moon-Crane]

Can't agree with all the outright hatred of S8-10. As much as they may be the weakest in the show's run, I'd take those years for the several definite gems and enough good episodes within, rather than wish it had ended with S7.

For those who wanted SBSB 1&2 to be the final episodes, if it had ended on the the Niles/Daphne story i'd have felt cheated. The show was Frasier and i wanted it based mainly around Frasier Crane - and that included the finale being focused on his story.

[CatNamedRudy]

I agree 100% with M.C.

[mickeba]

I don't think S 8 was bad at all. I never have. It wasn't as good as any of 1-7 but it was still good. 9 and 10 are a real dropoff. 11 is nowhere near brilliant. To me it's solid, and looks good compared to 9 and 10.

[Murphy]

Can't agree with all the outright hatred of S8-10. As much as they may be the weakest in the show's run, I'd take those years for the several definite gems and enough good episodes within, rather than wish it had ended with S7.

For those who wanted SBSB 1&2 to be the final episodes, if it had ended on the the Niles/Daphne story i'd have felt cheated. The show was Frasier and i wanted it based mainly around Frasier Crane - and that included the finale being focused on his story.

I agree that SBSB 1&2 should not have been the series finale as it stands now. I meant that Season 7 would have been a good year to finish, maybe with SBSB 1&2 happening mid-season, leaving space for Frasier's personal storyline to take centre stage for the end.

As for the outright hatred of S8-10. Well, yeah, I suppose it is hatred, but a very mild form of hatred. I mean I had a couple of stress induced headaches getting through the Lana/Claire travesty but I wouldn't wish ill of anyone who worked on the show during that time. The problem is that it's such a painfully sharp drop in quality and an almost total perversion of the characters as I knew them. Still, I have eight great seasons out of eleven to enjoy so I'm happy. I just got a little wound up trying to figure out how the show could take such a drastic turn for the worse.

[Moon-Crane]

Can't agree with all the outright hatred of S8-10. As much as they may be the weakest in the show's run, I'd take those years for the several definite gems and enough good episodes within, rather than wish it had ended with S7.

For those who wanted SBSB 1&2 to be the final episodes, if it had ended on the the Niles/Daphne story i'd have felt cheated. The show was Frasier and i wanted it based mainly around Frasier Crane - and that included the finale being focused on his story.

I agree that SBSB 1&2 should not have been the series finale as it stands now. I meant that Season 7 would have been a good year to finish, maybe with SBSB 1&2 happening mid-season, leaving space for Frasier's personal storyline to take centre stage for the end.

As for the outright hatred of S8-10. Well, yeah, I suppose it is hatred, but a very mild form of hatred. I mean I had a couple of stress induced headaches getting through the Lana/Claire travesty but I wouldn't wish ill of anyone who worked on the show during that time. The problem is that it's such a painfully sharp drop in quality and an almost total perversion of the characters as I knew them. Still, I have eight great seasons out of eleven to enjoy so I'm happy. I just got a little wound up trying to figure out how the show could take such a drastic turn for the worse.

I think Saladin K Patterson and Dan O'Shannon believed that some people wished them ill in years gone by!

There are certainly episodes that used to make me as angry as you've been about them. I appear to have mellowed to the bulk of them over the years.

[Murphy]

Just did a quick IMDb on Saladin K Patterson and Dan O'Shannon. Both have contributed excellent work to Psych and Modern Family respectively, so how comes they ... No, no! I must stop! Let it go, Murphy! Let. It. Go. I'll never find out what exactly happened to Frasier in Seasons 8-10 and I must learn to accept that.

[CatNamedRudy]

There are certainly episodes that used to make me as angry as you've been about them. I appear to have mellowed to the bulk of them over the years.

There are a lot of episodes that annoy me but the only one that really makes me angry is The Crucible. It gets my hackles up just thinking about it!

[Whisper of cinnamon]

Resolving the Niles/Daphne situation of the past seven years seems to be the most popular explanation for Season 8's nosedive in quality, but I think it actually played only a small part in the problem. Even storylines and individual scenes that don't include Niles or Daphne nor even refer to them are more often than not of a far inferior quality in terms of writing. Character, plot, dialogue - they all take a crippling hit. What I don't understand is how Creative Consultants of such demonstrable talent as David Lloyd and David Isaacs seemed to have had no positive influence. Then there's Bob Daily, Dan O'Shannon, Mark Reisman, Rob Hanning, Lori Kirkland, Jon Sherman, Sam Johnson & Chris Marcil - all writers with good work to their credit in S7 and yet the next year they can't cobble more than three above average episodes between them.

I've now reached Season 11 which is like stepping out into sun shine after years crawling through the Underworld. Suddenly the dialogue zings, the plots are smooth and well paced, characters stay in character and all is right with the world.

I just got a little wound up trying to figure out how the show could take such a drastic turn for the worse.

Let it go, Murphy! Let. It. Go. I'll never find out what exactly happened to Frasier in Seasons 8-10 and I must learn to accept that.

Hi Murphy! Here's my take on the issues which you raise above. I think the sudden decline at season 8 can be explained by the combination of three factors:

1. The show was running out of steam. Seasons 6 and 7, though brilliant, were not quite as good as seasons 4 and 5. The Niles-Daphne arc in season 7 gave it a lift and helped to disguise the fact that the show was, essentially, losing some momentum. Most of the great stories had been done, and there wasn't that much more to say about the 5 main characters.

2. The bringing together of Niles and Daphne. This had a huge impact on the show in general, in many obvious and less obvious ways. It had a major negative effect on the two characters (2/5ths of the show), the show's emotional truth, and the overall ensemble dynamic.

3. The change in showrunners. Lloyd had been executive producer on the show from season 2 (after being co-executive producer on season 1), and Keenan had been rising through the ranks to executive producer ever since he joined the staff in season 2. I think it's very clear what these two bring to the table from their individual credited episodes. Apart from a solid understanding of the characters, they are both brilliant at plotting and dialogue. As you've mentioned, both plotting and dialogue are noticeably less good in seasons 8-10. Based on my understanding of the role of showrunners, Lloyd and Keenan would not only have been penning their own episodes, they would have had creative control over season-long arcs, they would have been overseeing the pitching of story ideas, breaking the stories, and also contributing dialogue and jokes even to episodes where they are not the credited writers.

This explains how the show could decline even with many of the same writers as the previous season, as the writers who remained had not been the showrunners with creative control. The show lost two highly talented and experienced leaders at its helm. A change of showrunner/s often occasions a major change in tone/style/quality on a show - see The Simpsons and Seinfeld for two other obvious examples.

Thus when Lloyd and Keenan return to run season 11 - what improves? Overall understanding of character, slicker plotting, and wittier dialogue. What doesn't improve? The two other problems - Niles and Daphne, as a couple and as individual characters, are still not right, harming the overall ensemble. The show also feels more tired and stretching for storylines than in its golden years. Thus season 11 is better than seasons 8-10, but not as good as seasons 1-7, IMO.

So, these three factors combine together. At season 8, suddenly a show that was already losing momentum lost its strongest purveyors of consistently adept plotting and dialogue, and the bringing together of Niles and Daphne significantly depleted the charm and comedic potential of two of the main characters, individually and together, thus affecting the overall ensemble, and lost the show its emotional/character truth/believability. Quite a triple whammy.