A twinge of sadness. Am I alone?

[frefaln]

I realize this post will seem a little odd, perhaps even pathetic, but I need to get it off my chest. I've been a huge Frasier fan for years and I just finished cycling through the series for about the sixth time. Each time, the process is the same:

Seasons 1-3: I'm in awe at the energy/chemistry of the entire cast, love watching the Niles/Daphe arc as he wriggles away from the grip of Maris.

Seasons 4-6: too many gut-busting laughs and heart-wrenching moments to mention. I especially love the scenes where the three Crane boys are united in their solitude (i.e. Maris Counselor).

Seasons 7-10: the laughs take a momentary back seat to character depth and exploration. It's fun watching Niles and Daphne grow comfortable with each other, and to see Frasier wrestle with his own demons. And yes, I get angry at the "Daphne Returns" episode every single time.

Season 11: this is where the sadness comes in. Even though I've come to know almost every line of every script, "Goodnight, Seattle" still leaves me with sadness when it ends.

Sadness for two primary reasons:
1. Despite all the awards/nominations the show received, Frasier seems to remain vastly underappreciated. The writing and acting is sheer genius, and yet, it would appear most people have forgotten about it. People regurgitate lines from Seinfeld and Friends all the time, but sadly, Frasier seems to be distant or obscure memory for most.

2. I can't imagine ever enjoying a show this much again, one that simultaneously makes me laugh and inspires me to take risks and live life to the fullest. That realization saddens me.

I suppose if there were a real Dr. Frasier Crane, he'd tell me that my sadness over a sitcom is the symptom of trying to fill a void in my life with a scripted show. Perhaps there's an element of truth to that, but at the same time, I'm not ashamed that I grew so attached to this truly wonderful show. I'd like to think I'm not alone.

[Mr Blue Sky]

Seasons 7-10: the laughs take a momentary back seat to character depth and exploration. It's fun watching Niles and Daphne grow comfortable with each other, and to see Frasier wrestle with his own demons. And yes, I get angry at the "Daphne Returns" episode every single time.

I think it's interesting you chose to bunch those seasons together. I feel the same way about seasons 7-10 (i.e. that the laughs took a back seat) despite season 7 still being helmed by Keenan and Lloyd. There was too much repetition of ideas in that season for my liking, even though I still enjoy the season as a whole.

Sadness for two primary reasons:
1. Despite all the awards/nominations the show received, Frasier seems to remain vastly underappreciated. The writing and acting is sheer genius, and yet, it would appear most people have forgotten about it. People regurgitate lines from Seinfeld and Friends all the time, but sadly, Frasier seems to be distant or obscure memory for most.

I think the show went extremely unappreciated by NBC, and laterly Paramount and CBS with regards to the DVD releases. The Friends and Seinfeld box sets come with all the bells and whistles, it seems no expense was spared to give those the 5 star treatment. I know this may sound snobbish but I think Frasier is a far more important show than those two, in terms of television history (37 Emmys are unlikely to be equalled by a sitcom ever again). I think every episode should have come with some sort of commentary by a cast member, writer or director of the ep. I doubt the box set we'd all like to see with tonnes of lovely extras will ever happen now.

So yes, I share your sadness.

[Stratman]

Hmm, I don't think Frasier has ever been close to being the most important show in history. The Mary Tyler Moore Show won, I believe, 31 emmy's in about 4 less years and the emmy count wasn't bolstered by technicals, plus it trailblazed and wrote the comedy rulebook. Frasier was run of mill sitcom fare done really really well until. Seinfeld of course, speaks for itself.

I'm extremely jaded where this show is concerned though so...

[barnaclelapse]

I wouldn't call it the most important show in history either (that honor, in my own personal opinion, belongs to Star Trek), but I will say it was rather significant in its own small way, since its best episodes were able to illustrate how much room was still left in the traditional sitcom for compelling characterization and sharp, beautifully written stories with enough room for drama and personality, not just twenty-two straight minutes of cheap laughs.

[mickeba]

Mickeba does think that while Seinfeld is genius, Friends is clearly not, and as more time passes, people do see what a weak show Friends was. And that's how it goes with most tv shows. I think that Cheers is quite unappreciated as well, although it is a very dated reminder of the 1980's in America, and that plays a part in the view that some have of Cheers. As for Frasier, it too is quite unappreciated, and I think a lot of that stems from the last 5 or 6 years it was on NBC. It was placed in a poor timeslot, Tuesday nights, and surrounded with such poor sister shows, making it impossible to carry a night of television that, aside from Frasier, was pretty much garbage. No way that show could thrive. Although for quite a while, the quality remained so much better than anything on tv. So while people have to a certain degree forgotten how great Frasier is/was, when you view the first 5 seasons of DVD's, the greatness shows. Mickeba concurs on Daphne returns. It was so mean spirited and out of character for the series. The whole fat farm thing was cruel and pointless, and is the best example of Frasier at it's worst. Another episode Mickeba despises is "Room full of heroes". Niles' behavior in that was so out of character for him. The premise of the episode had promise, but the execution was lacking. That's one of the few Frasier's that Mickeba will never view again.

mickeba

[CatNamedRudy]

Seasons 7-10: the laughs take a momentary back seat to character depth and exploration. It's fun watching Niles and Daphne grow comfortable with each other, and to see Frasier wrestle with his own demons. And yes, I get angry at the "Daphne Returns" episode every single time.

I'm curious as to why you get angry.

Mickeba mentioned that he feels the episode is mean spirited. Much like Room Full of Heroes, this is an episode he and I will never agree on.

I think Daphne Returns is one of the few shining moments of S8. Niles' behavior angers me and I want to kill him for being such an ass but I like it because it's one of the very few times we actually SEE some relationship growing pains between Niles and Daphne. And the scene between Frasier and Niles in Niles' office is one of my favorite sentimental "brother" moments in the entire series.

[Moose]

I've just purchased The West Wing box set for £50, what a bargain. I have been watching too much Frasier recently and need a change....

I think it is good to have a break for a while and then come back.

[The Corkmaster]

As comedy - Seinfeld is FAR superior to Frasier IMO.

[CatNamedRudy]

As comedy - Seinfeld is FAR superior to Frasier IMO.

I love Seinfeld but if I were stuck on a desert island and could only have one box set of comedy and one box set of drama with me for the rest of my days (there's a TV and a DVD player and electricity on my desert island! ) I'd choose Frasier as my comedy and The West Wing as my drama.

[Karin]

As comedy - Seinfeld is FAR superior to Frasier IMO.

I love Seinfeld but if I were stuck on a desert island and could only have one box set of comedy and one box set of drama with me for the rest of my days (there's a TV and a DVD player and electricity on my desert island! ) I'd choose Frasier as my comedy and The West Wing as my drama.

Ditto.

[Janey]

I really, really DON'T want to make this thread political, but do you think there's a possibility that Frasier has been treated like the red-headed stepchild because of Kelsey Grammer's political leanings? They're quite a closed club out there in Hollywood and things like may mean more than we realize.

[CatNamedRudy]

I really, really DON'T want to make this thread political, but do you think there's a possibility that Frasier has been treated like the red-headed stepchild because of Kelsey Grammer's political leanings? They're quite a closed club out there in Hollywood and things like may mean more than we realize.

I actually don't think Frasier has been treated like the red headed step child. In the public sector, things like Friends and Seinfeld seem to get more credit (though I really don't think Seinfeld should be compared to Frasier because the comedic styles are pretty different) but among the Hollywood types, Frasier actually gets huge amounts of praise.

I think Kelsey himself might get treated a bit more harshly and might have a somewhat more difficult time landing roles because of his political leanings but not to a great extent.

Even though Kelsey is a noted Republican who makes no bones about his political affiliation and his friendship with Bush, he isn't real radical and he seems to do a pretty decent job of not spouting off too much. Which is more than I can say about many a lefty out there in Hollyweird!

[mickeba]

I think the reason it's mean spirited is that there could have been a better story line than the fat farm. a better solution could have been found. It was more disrespectful to Jane, than to Daphne as a character. And Frasier has always been a show that's classy and takes the high road for the most part, and that seemed quite out of place. As for "Room", what I didn't like was that Niles portrayal of Martin, keep in mind his hero, was a drunken bum for the most part. It wasn't the least bit respectful or reverential. Another case where a story had great potential and was reduced to the lowest denominator.

mickeba

[CatNamedRudy]

Niles didn't start out portraying Martin that way though. He only became that way after he actually got drunk. Too, Niles didn't actually dress as Martin because he looked at Martin has his "hero". He did it to suck up because he was jealous of Frasier's relationship with him.

I don't find Daphne Returns mean spirited in the least. I agree that the fat farm angle was a stupid one to take but I don't think it was mean spirited.

These two episodes are definitely two that you and I will always be at opposite ends of the spectrum on Mickeba!

[welshben23]

As comedy - Seinfeld is FAR superior to Frasier IMO.

I love Seinfeld but if I were stuck on a desert island and could only have one box set of comedy and one box set of drama with me for the rest of my days (there's a TV and a DVD player and electricity on my desert island! ) I'd choose Frasier as my comedy and The West Wing as my drama.

Ditto.

Ditto Ditto.

[Janey]

It was more disrespectful to Jane, than to Daphne as a character.

How so? Jane wasn't fat, she was pregnant. The "fat" aspect was just a comedic device to get Jane off the show for a few episodes.

Niles portrayal of Martin, keep in mind his hero, was a drunken bum for the most part.

No, Martin wasn't a "drunken bum", but Niles was drunk when he portrayed Martin. Big difference.

[Janey]

I actually don't think Frasier has been treated like the red headed step child. In the public sector, things like Friends and Seinfeld seem to get more credit (though I really don't think Seinfeld should be compared to Frasier because the comedic styles are pretty different) but among the Hollywood types, Frasier actually gets huge amounts of praise.

So why are the DVDs so crappy?

[Wezzo]

I actually don't think Frasier has been treated like the red headed step child. In the public sector, things like Friends and Seinfeld seem to get more credit (though I really don't think Seinfeld should be compared to Frasier because the comedic styles are pretty different) but among the Hollywood types, Frasier actually gets huge amounts of praise.

So why are the DVDs so crappy?

Because CBS/Paramount suck. They never give their TV boxsets a lot of extras. Frasier did better than most. Additionally, I think sales weren't spectacular.

[CatNamedRudy]

I actually don't think Frasier has been treated like the red headed step child. In the public sector, things like Friends and Seinfeld seem to get more credit (though I really don't think Seinfeld should be compared to Frasier because the comedic styles are pretty different) but among the Hollywood types, Frasier actually gets huge amounts of praise.

So why are the DVDs so crappy?

Because Paramount sucks rocks! Cheers DVDs are crappy too and I don't think Ted Danson is a Republican.

[Janey]

...I don't think Ted Danson is a Republican.

That's an understatement. You're quite right.

[barnaclelapse]

I actually don't think Frasier has been treated like the red headed step child. In the public sector, things like Friends and Seinfeld seem to get more credit (though I really don't think Seinfeld should be compared to Frasier because the comedic styles are pretty different) but among the Hollywood types, Frasier actually gets huge amounts of praise.

So why are the DVDs so crappy?

Because Paramount sucks rocks! Cheers DVDs are crappy too and I don't think Ted Danson is a Republican.

A lot of Paramount/CBS' DVD releases seem to be a little on the mediocre side in terms of packaging and special features.

Honestly, it doesn't bother me that much. I'm just happy when a new season of this show I like or that one comes out.

[Hans the German Butler]

As comedy - Seinfeld is FAR superior to Frasier IMO.

I love Seinfeld but if I were stuck on a desert island and could only have one box set of comedy and one box set of drama with me for the rest of my days (there's a TV and a DVD player and electricity on my desert island! ) I'd choose Frasier as my comedy and The West Wing as my drama.

Ditto.

Ditto Ditto.

More dittos from me. Even in the fallow Frasier years (seasons 8 to 10) it was still better than a lot of other sit-coms.

As for the West Wing, it had passed me by until about August this year - just because I'd never gotten round to watching it (I haven't watched 24, CSI, Boston Legal or The Wire either). I now own all 7 seasons of the West Wing on DVD and think that it's superb.

[mickeba]

Yes she was pregnant, but I still think there were better comic devices that could have been used. The fat farm just seemed insensitive to me, and a bit cheap.

mickeba

[barnaclelapse]

I actually quite liked it. I thought they handled it fairly well, and the reasoning behind it was quite interesting and lead to one of the stronger Niles/Daphne episodes from the early moments of their relationship.

[mickeba]

another reason Frasier isn't as "acclaimed" as Seinfeld or some other shows is that Frasier has so many dramatic elements that it's not as easy a view as some other shows. it's not your standard sitcom fare in that the writing is so intelligent, and they don't (as often) go for the standard, and cheap laughs that a lot of shows do. the characters have depth and the audience is treated as intelligent people, not as just canned laugh baited lemmings. i would have loved to see an episode that was a straight drama, no laughs. the cast was strong enough to pull it off, and i'd have loved it.

mickeba