How did Daphne not know Niles loved her all that time?

[frasier floyd]

I just watched the episode where Daphne finally learns that Niles has loved her all these years after Frasier blurts it out. It's hard to imagine that, after all this time, she wouldn't have caught on or at least suspected his feelings even once! Especially since he was always fumbling around her, smelling her hair, etc. I once had a friend develop feelings for me and didn't know right away, but someone brought it to my attention pretty quickly- even if she hadn't, I couldn't have missed it for long. How did she not know?

PS I know I could just write it off to the rules of tv-land, since her not knowing gave us many laughs, but I still wanted to start a thread in case anyone wanted to speculate with me

[Patrick]

The only ones who knew before Martin told it to Roz were him and Frasier. I don't think that either would have talked about it. Actually I was a little surprised that Martin even told it to Roz. It seems a bit weird considering how Roz is well known for being a gossip. She's like the typhoid Mary of rumors.

Anyway, she learned it very late and she was the third one to know. So I am not surprised that no one brought it to Daphne's attention.

[Roverman]

After all Daphne is a woman and they are supposed to know everything a man is up to (allegedly) and she never noticed for one minute that this man who practically follows her around like a puppy for SEVEN YEARS? It however does tie up nicely with the fact she is a terrible psychic!

[frasier floyd]

I'm kind of surprised Roz never mentioned it either! I guess I respect her not telling, but it's not like her and Niles were close and she had much reason to look out for him. Plus, I don't think she knew it was necessarily a secret, just that some people didn't know about it. She could've let it slip without thinking at some point even, I mean people talk about that stuff sometimes!

Also, I never thought of her not knowing in terms of her psychic abilities

[Patrick]

After all Daphne is a woman and they are supposed to know everything a man is up to (allegedly) and she never noticed for one minute that this man who practically follows her around like a puppy for SEVEN YEARS? It however does tie up nicely with the fact she is a terrible psychic!

In the fictional world of Frasier where psychics apparently exist, I'd say she's an amazing psychic. She made quite a few predictions over the years that were uncanny. The chances for a real person to guess these things are astronomically small.

[Eddie2012]

Maybe on a subconscious level she knew all along, but didn’t want to allow this knowledge to surface to a conscious level, because she was too afraid of the consequences? Fearing many awkward situations with Niles being her boss’ brother, who spends more time at Frasier’s than at his own home? Or even too afraid of allowing feelings of her own to develop as they are so different on all levels?

Just some lunch break musings

[Ariel]

Maybe on a subconscious level she knew all along, but didn’t want to allow this knowledge to surface to a conscious level, because she was too afraid of the consequences? Fearing many awkward situations with Niles being her boss’ brother, who spends more time at Frasier’s than at his own home? Or even too afraid of allowing feelings of her own to develop as they are so different on all levels?

Just some lunch break musings

Yes, that's how I always looked at it, she had feelings for him that she kept under wraps while he was married and had just never even really acknowledged them to herself, and possibly thought that Niles might have just had a 'bit of a thing' for her, rather than that he was in love with her.

[JT]

Because it was part of the show. In reality, she would have developed a suspicion pretty early on.

[freewill]

Maybe on a subconscious level she knew all along, but didn’t want to allow this knowledge to surface to a conscious level, because she was too afraid of the consequences? Fearing many awkward situations with Niles being her boss’ brother, who spends more time at Frasier’s than at his own home? Or even too afraid of allowing feelings of her own to develop as they are so different on all levels?

Just some lunch break musings

Yes, that's how I always looked at it, she had feelings for him that she kept under wraps while he was married and had just never even really acknowledged them to herself, and possibly thought that Niles might have just had a 'bit of a thing' for her, rather than that he was in love with her.

And then those feelings that Daphne had been sublimating, finally manifested themselves when she fell for Rodney, the Niles doppelganger!

[Ariel]

Maybe on a subconscious level she knew all along, but didn’t want to allow this knowledge to surface to a conscious level, because she was too afraid of the consequences? Fearing many awkward situations with Niles being her boss’ brother, who spends more time at Frasier’s than at his own home? Or even too afraid of allowing feelings of her own to develop as they are so different on all levels?

Just some lunch break musings

Yes, that's how I always looked at it, she had feelings for him that she kept under wraps while he was married and had just never even really acknowledged them to herself, and possibly thought that Niles might have just had a 'bit of a thing' for her, rather than that he was in love with her.

And then those feelings that Daphne had been sublimating, finally manifested themselves when she fell for Rodney, the Niles doppelganger!

Of course, absolutely, can't believe I forgot that!

[Moon-Crane]

Because it was part of the show. In reality, she would have developed a suspicion pretty early on.

That was the way i saw it. It was a great plot device for the show in which they could have ended up together at any time they wanted if they could see the show being canned. Once the show carried on for a whole bunch of years, it reached the stage where it was possibly a little too farcical to string it out any longer? I'm not certain on the figures at every stage of the show's original tv run, but i assume they saw the figures dipping by just enough for S6 and into S7 that they saw the relationship dynamic as the perfect ratings booster opportunity?

There may be real life examples of people being completely oblivious to another's longings, but i only know it in tv world

I like some of the justifications presented by people here, though. Very plausible for the show's characters. Guess it shows why it could work for so long

[frasier floyd]

I know it was just part of the show- letting Niles continue to drool over her without her knowing- but for the sake of fun conversation I wanted to see what people thought.

I personally think it was mostly Niles' love for her that made Daphne return his feelings. Before that, I don't think she ever saw Niles as anything other than Frasier's brother so she never considered him as a romantic/sexual being and therefore missed his otherwise obvious signals. But when she found out his feelings, she suddenly she saw him in that new light. Plus, right after she found out Niles loved her, she saw him happy with Mel so that automatically could've sparked a little jealousy, if only because she was no longer the object of the attention she never even knew she was getting from Niles. That little spark of jealousy plus seeing him in the new light of someone who longed for her made him seem like the greatest guy ever, and Donnie could no longer compete with his love.

I think the magic of their love illusion fizzled out when they finally got together though. They didn't seem as in love or as compatible as either of them may have hoped and imagined, and they were immediately left to deal with the stress of leaving their loved ones during their early honey-moon period together. Daphne seemed shocked and unhappy to learn of Donnie's moving on and was generally unhappy for a while after that. She was more sarcastic and moody than ever. Of course she ate herself to an obese weight, but I know this was only to hide her pregnancy so it's hard to take that into consideration with the rest of the show's intentional writing. Still, the old chipper and quirky Daphne was gone- especially once she starts acting hoity-toity like Niles.

[PistolPoet]

That was the way i saw it. It was a great plot device for the show in which they could have ended up together at any time they wanted if they could see the show being canned. Once the show carried on for a whole bunch of years, it reached the stage where it was possibly a little too farcical to string it out any longer? I'm not certain on the figures at every stage of the show's original tv run, but i assume they saw the figures dipping by just enough for S6 and into S7 that they saw the relationship dynamic as the perfect ratings booster opportunity?

I think it was the right time to get them together plot-wise as well - any longer and it would have made much more sense for Niles to stay married to Mel, and Daphne to Donny. Not to mention that the romantic tension can overstay its welcome (just think of How I Met Your Mother, which is my favourite show, but is now two seasons too long).

I think the magic of their love illusion fizzled out when they finally got together though. They didn't seem as in love or as compatible as either of them may have hoped and imagined, and they were immediately left to deal with the stress of leaving their loved ones during their early honey-moon period together. Daphne seemed shocked and unhappy to learn of Donnie's moving on and was generally unhappy for a while after that. She was more sarcastic and moody than ever. Of course she ate herself to an obese weight, but I know this was only to hide her pregnancy so it's hard to take that into consideration with the rest of the show's intentional writing. Still, the old chipper and quirky Daphne was gone- especially once she starts acting hoity-toity like Niles.

I wonder if the writers had even intended that Daphne and Niles should eventually get together. They were always very incompatible and it wouldn't surprise me if Niles's crush was originally meant simply as a funny side-plot. If they'd always wanted Niles and Daphne to get together, they could have shown more changes in them over the years, so that by the 7th season they could be more similar. Instead, they changed Daphne abruptly and only after she started dating Niles.
The funny thing is that, when I first watched Frasier, I didn't notice what an unlikely couple they were. But the more I watch the show (though I usually stick to the first seven seasons), the more incompatible and unconvincing they look. I know that they're far from the only unconvincing couple on TV, but I do think the writers could definitely have handled their relationship better.

[frasier floyd]

I think you're probably right. I don't imagine that they were meant to be together until a few episodes before it happened (starting with the foreshadowing of Daphne having a vision of her soul mate with a dragon). I kind of wonder why they put them together at all.

[PistolPoet]

I suppose it was because the viewers would have been disappointed otherwise. In so many sitcoms romantic tension between characters has to develop into something more, because people like a love story with a happy end, and the episode where they finally get together brings very good ratings.

[frasier floyd]

That's true! I wasn't watching it when it was new on TV so I can't relate to the audience's reaction to the show then. I can see how they'd want to see what happened if they did finally get together.

[Ariel]

Having just watched the episode before Daphne goes off to the 'fat farm' it is a bit hard to take, with the previously svelte Daphne hiding chocolates in bookcases etc and Niles not even noticing her enormous size, but of course the writers really had no choice with that one - unless they decided she was going to have Donny's baby!
Just out of interest, when Daphne and Niles do have their own baby - was that to hide a real pregnancy as well, or was that just purely part of the plot?

[Patrick]

Having just watched the episode before Daphne goes off to the 'fat farm' it is a bit hard to take, with the previously svelte Daphne hiding chocolates in bookcases etc and Niles not even noticing her enormous size, but of course the writers really had no choice with that one - unless they decided she was going to have Donny's baby!
Just out of interest, when Daphne and Niles do have their own baby - was that to hide a real pregnancy as well, or was that just purely part of the plot?

They could have said that Daphne had fallen down a flight of stairs, suffered multiple fractures, and consequently had to wear a body cast for the five or six months during which her pregnancy was apparent.

[PistolPoet]

Having just watched the episode before Daphne goes off to the 'fat farm' it is a bit hard to take, with the previously svelte Daphne hiding chocolates in bookcases etc and Niles not even noticing her enormous size, but of course the writers really had no choice with that one - unless they decided she was going to have Donny's baby!
Just out of interest, when Daphne and Niles do have their own baby - was that to hide a real pregnancy as well, or was that just purely part of the plot?

According to this Mental Floss article and this one from TV Guide, they worked her second pregnancy into the plot as well. Though I was sure her belly in season 11 was fake (lol) since she didn't seem to have gained any weight anywhere else, while in season 8 she really was huge.

[Patrick]

...
According to this Mental Floss article and this one from TV Guide, they worked her second pregnancy into the plot as well. Though I was sure her belly in season 11 was fake (lol) since she didn't seem to have gained any weight anywhere else, while in season 8 she really was huge.

I don't get it. They both say that her second pregnancy was written into the plot but they don't say when. If it's during season 11 then how did they manage to hide her belly during the flash-backs of Crock Tales?

Btw, on other shows they often get the character pregnant at the same time as the actress, that simplifies things.


On DS9, they turned Major Kira (Nana Visitor) into a surrogate mother for another character... long story and funnily enough they did the same on Friends with Phoebe Buffay (Lisa Kudrow). Same trick for two completely different shows.


What if they had done that on Frasier as well? Daphne agreeing to become a surrogate mother for some (compelling) reason.

Maybe they thought it was overused...

[PistolPoet]

...
According to this Mental Floss article and this one from TV Guide, they worked her second pregnancy into the plot as well. Though I was sure her belly in season 11 was fake (lol) since she didn't seem to have gained any weight anywhere else, while in season 8 she really was huge.

I don't get it. They both say that her second pregnancy was written into the plot but they don't say when. If it's during season 11 then how did they manage to hide her belly during the flash-backs of Crock Tales?

Btw, in other show they often get the character pregnant at the same time as the actress, that simplifies things.


On DS9, they turned Major Kira (Nana Visitor) into a surrogate mother for another character... long story and funnily enough they did the same on Friends with Phoebe Buffay (Lisa Kudrow). Same trick for two completely different shows.


What if they had done that on Frasier as well? Daphne agreeing to become a surrogate mother for some (compelling) reason.

Maybe they thought it was overused...

Jane gave birth to her second child in December 2003, so it had to be in season 11 (anyway, if they say they worked it into the plot, it means that she was pregnant as Daphne as well, so it can't be any other season). But they said somewhere that they didn't shoot all episodes in order, so Crock Tales could have been shot before (or Jane may have given birth before Daphne, so she did fake it for a while on Frasier).

As for the surrogate pregnancy, I think that it could only have worked if Daphne was the main character. I know that she is in the main cast, but she's still in the shadow of Niles and Frasier, so to me it would be a bit weird if they had such a huge spotlight on her. It would have to be an entire arc, with before-pregnancy issues surrounding surrogate pregnancies, then nine months of her carrying the baby, then the aftermath... I think that would be too much. With Phoebe it was different, since all Friends were supposed to get equal air time.

[Ariel]

Those links were really funny - I'm a Sex in the City fan, and I never realised that SJP was pregnant at the time, that WAS a successful concealing wardrobe!!