Did Mel Know?

[Ariel]

OK so in my rewatching I am at the Dahne's wedding, (or non wedding!) stage. In rewatching the whole Niles and Mel thing - do you think Mel knew exactly what was going on with Daphne - I think that even if she hadn't guessed, that Meris told her when she rang her - hence the conversation between Mel and Daphne during the massage when she effectively backs Daphne off Niles. I think that is why she pressured Niles into a marriage quickly before Daphne got married, in an attempt to make sure that Daphne went through with her marriage to Donny.
What does everyone else think?

[Patrick]

Honestly, I don't think so. She really confided to Daphne as she would have to a friend during that massage session if she suspected anything she would have confronted Niles head on and given him hell as she did before. I think Mel was condescending to Daphne and considered her to be a member of an inferior class of people and at the same time during that massage she tried to be as amicable "to the help" as she knew how, the same way the butler did, although with more diplomacy on his part. During the X-mas episode she practically broke up with Niles twice even though both times she had only a vague suspicion on a blurted word of Frasier (who was quite the blunderbuss then... )

She's not one to fake affection or to bottle up her resentment. If she suspected anything, even half of a thing, she would have made Niles life miserable until everything was explained to the last detail.

So, in conclusion, my opinion is no, no suspicion whatsoever until the moment when Niles told her and she burst into hysterics.

Besides when Niles and Daphne were in that hotel room with all the people passing by (including Mel and Donny) . The only people who realized that something was going on were Martin and her brother Simon (who for all his flaws is quite perceptive).

[frasier floyd]

I'm glad this question was asked because I like speculating underlying situations on Frasier, even though there probably aren't meant to be any. For instance, I wondered if Daphne missed Donnie after leaving him for Niles since she looked hurt when she found out he was engaged, showed up to talk to him at the courthouse, and was generally super unhappy for a while after she fled the wedding.

Anyway, I think your thoughts on Mel and Daphne are interesting! I hadn't considered that Maris could've warned her about Daphne- though did even Maris know about it? I think Mel just seems like a closed off/snobby person who opened up to Daphne just because she was upset and started talking about Niles, which made her momentarily sincere. I can't recall any instances in which I thought Mel looked suspicious of Daphne. If anything, she regarded her as help and didn't seem to consider her as a beautiful woman. But I'll keep an eye out next time I watch those episodes just for the sake of a fun conversation

[PistolPoet]

I'm pretty sure Maris never knew about Daphne. They almost never met, since Frasier said that Maris never attended family functions, and I doubt Niles spoke about Daphne to Maris, so I don't think Niles could have given away any signs of having a crush on Daphne. Plus, even if she somehow did know, Maris fell out with Mel when she gained all that weight (in To Thine Old Self Be True), and she accused Mel of malpractice, so I really don't think that she'd want to warn Mel of anything.

As for Mel knowing any other way, as Patrick said, I think she would have reacted differently at the hotel when she saw Niles and Daphne alone.

[frasier floyd]

I just remembered that Maris did accuse Niles of showing affection for Daphne during their divorce, so I guess she did actually suspect something! Unless she just guessed correctly while making up reasons to make him look bad. STill, I'm not sure that she would've told Mel, though I guess it's possible!

[Ariel]

Can anyone remember - I think that there was something about Maris and Niles friends noticing, saying something to Maris, after the 'dancing with Daphne n the red dress' episode. She did accuse Niles of being in love with Daphne at one stage in the divorce, but I can't remember if she based it on the dance or not?
I think when they are all crossing and recrossing the hotel bedroom in THAT episode and Mel appears with the holiday leaflets and suddenly starts going on about the honeymoon,there is a sort of desperation to her (of course, it could be that I have far too much imagination!!

[PistolPoet]

Can anyone remember - I think that there was something about Maris and Niles friends noticing, saying something to Maris, after the 'dancing with Daphne n the red dress' episode. She did accuse Niles of being in love with Daphne at one stage in the divorce, but I can't remember if she based it on the dance or not?

Yup, that's what frasier floyd meant, in To Tell the Truth, Donny tells Niles (during the divorce proceedings) that Maris said Niles was in love with Daphne, all based on what happened in Moon Dance when Niles and Daphne danced the tango and kissed at the end of it.

[Ariel]

Sooo, if Maris knew, and she wanted to make life more difficult for Niles (which of course she did) she might have said something to Mel, or dropped a hint?
After all, most married, engaged, in a relationship, women are actually pretty wary of any single woman, even if they think their station is way below their own!

[PistolPoet]

Sooo, if Maris knew, and she wanted to make life more difficult for Niles (which of course she did) she might have said something to Mel, or dropped a hint?
After all, most married, engaged, in a relationship, women are actually pretty wary of any single woman, even if they think their station is way below their own!

It's possible, but I don't think so, my proof being To Thine Old Self Be True. We find out that Maris has gained weight and blames Mel for it; therefore, they are no longer on good terms, so Maris could only have warned Mel before that. However, in that same episode, Mel asks Daphne for a massage. I can't speak for her, but I definitely wouldn't want a woman I'm jealous of touching me, much less giving me a massage, and I wouldn't want to make that great little speech about Niles in front of her, either. So I'd say Mel didn't suspect anything.

EDIT: Also, I'd really like to think not most women in relationships are wary around single women. Of course, I can't know, but it sounds quite sad .

[frasier floyd]

I don't think most taken women are wary of single women! I'm currently in a long-term relationship with a guy who's crazy handsome/charming and I don't get jealous of other women. I mean, he's so lovable that I've even had a few lesbian friends tell me they liked him/thought he was cute before we were dating. I'm just comfortable with our relationship and know that he loves me so I'm not bothered by other women- which I suppose is how Mel felt as well, so she may not have thought anything of Daphne beyond her being Frasier's "help".

Also, I agree with Pistol Poet, that if I had an issue with someone I wouldn't go out of my way to interact with them. I'd probably have avoided going over to Frasier's to begin with if that were the case.

[Ariel]

Sooo, if Maris knew, and she wanted to make life more difficult for Niles (which of course she did) she might have said something to Mel, or dropped a hint?
After all, most married, engaged, in a relationship, women are actually pretty wary of any single woman, even if they think their station is way below their own!

It's possible, but I don't think so, my proof being To Thine Old Self Be True. We find out that Maris has gained weight and blames Mel for it; therefore, they are no longer on good terms, so Maris could only have warned Mel before that. However, in that same episode, Mel asks Daphne for a massage. I can't speak for her, but I definitely wouldn't want a woman I'm jealous of touching me, much less giving me a massage, and I wouldn't want to make that great little speech about Niles in front of her, either. So I'd say Mel didn't suspect anything.

EDIT: Also, I'd really like to think not most women in relationships are wary around single women. Of course, I can't know, but it sounds quite sad .

Yes, makes sense that way too! lol I may sound rather cynical, but I have found that wives always think single women are after their husbands - seeming unable to believe that anyone would rather be single than living in their state of 'bliss'

[Ariel]

I don't think most taken women are wary of single women! I'm currently in a long-term relationship with a guy who's crazy handsome/charming and I don't get jealous of other women. I mean, he's so lovable that I've even had a few lesbian friends tell me they liked him/thought he was cute before we were dating. I'm just comfortable with our relationship and know that he loves me so I'm not bothered by other women- which I suppose is how Mel felt as well, so she may not have thought anything of Daphne beyond her being Frasier's "help".

Also, I agree with Pistol Poet, that if I had an issue with someone I wouldn't go out of my way to interact with them. I'd probably have avoided going over to Frasier's to begin with if that were the case.

Perhaps I just meet batty wives!!

[PistolPoet]

Yes, makes sense that way too! lol I may sound rather cynical, but I have found that wives always think single women are after their husbands - seeming unable to believe that anyone would rather be single than living in their state of 'bliss'

Yuk, that reminds me of Roz's sister and her "perfect" husband who ends up dumping her .