Donnie and Daphne...

[frasier floyd]

I've been watching the episodes with Donnie in them lately and have noticed some interesting things happening with him and Daphne.

I never really bought Daphne and Donnie together, they just seem too different and unlikely a couple. However, after watching the show through a few times now, I've noticed some new insights into their relationship. First is Daphne's face upon hearing he was engaged again. Her jaw drops as she's obviously surprised by the news, but she also looks very sad in her eyes. Then she showed up to the courthouse to make sure he wasn't rushing into his new marriage, and to tell him that she was sorry. Wanting closure is understandable, but going to check on him and give him advice seems to be taking on a role of caregiver that's inappropriate for her. Before Donnie goes in to be married, she even fixed his tie! This is definitely a gesture of intimacy, which is also strange considering their recent history and current statuses.

I would've thought that Daphne would be thrilled to hear that Donnie was engaged to be married again. This engagement would relieve her of any lingering guilt over leaving him for Niles and would mean that he too was happy and moving on. Instead, she seemed to think it might be a mistake, and thought that she was the right person to point it out to him. Ironically, he proposed to Daphne after a short time of dating as well, but she never questioned that it was rushed then- Daphne would have been furious if an ex of Donnie's showed up to tell him the same about marrying her!

Maybe I'm looking into things too much, but as a woman, I can't help but notice that Daphne seemed to feel rejected by Donnie moving on and wanted some of his old attention and affection for her. Donnie approaching their table at dinner in a friendly manner seems to be enough closure for Daphne in my eyes, especially after he was threatening to sue her and Frasier! If I were Daphne, I would want to avoid unnecessary contact, and would be content with knowing things were peaceful and leave it at that. Daphne showing up at the courthouse just seems so strange and desperate in a way.

As the show goes on, we all see Daphne growing cold and sarcastic, and even bitter toward Niles at times. Now I'm wondering if her split from Donnie plays a role in that. Has anyone else noticed any of this or shared similar thoughts?

[Patrick]

Donnie has to be the one the most unjustly treated on the show, I mean after he literally saves Niles from being stripped naked and robbed blind both by Maris and his own lawyers; How does Niles repay him? first, he tries to badmouth him around Daphne, then he tries to put Roz between Daphne and Him and finally succeeds in stealing Daphne from him hours before the wedding. And this to the man who saved him from the shangri la and maybe a Winnebago eventually (remember that he was already reduced to eating baloney sandwiches, fact that Frasier found appalling).

What an ingrate!

[frasier floyd]

Thanks Patrick, that's an interesting point! I hadn't looked at things from Donnie's perspective before. Though I do recall someone pointing out that his last scene in the show is a rather depressing one- yelling out under the impression that Daphne was about to leave Niles at the altar as well.

[PistolPoet]

I wouldn't necessarily agree that Daphne went to the courthouse to get attention from Donny. In fact, if I were her, I think I would have done the same thing, except that I'd have met him somewhere private. Their relationship was still quite a bit longer than Donny's next one, and it's natural that she should be worried for him. Daphne left him in a devastating way, and she wants to make sure that he isn't jumping into an engagement smply in order to forget her faster. But though I don't think Daphne behaved badly towards him, I certainly agree with Patrick that Niles did, ever since he looked down his nose at Donny's office (not that Donny was very gentlemanlike in that episode, but still).

Also, while we're on the subject, I hate it when people say Daphne and Donny weren't a good couple. Based on what? Their height difference is a very superficial reason; you can say that he isn't terribly handsome, but I don't think she's all that beautiful, either, and beauty is subjective anyway; she is no more sophisticated than him. If anything, to me they made a much more believable couple than Daphne and Niles.

[PistolPoet]

Though I do recall someone pointing out that his last scene in the show is a rather depressing one- yelling out under the impression that Daphne was about to leave Niles at the altar as well.

Oh, goodness, I hate that scene! I always genuinely feel bad for him, it should have never ended that way.

[Eddie2012]

Though I do recall someone pointing out that his last scene in the show is a rather depressing one- yelling out under the impression that Daphne was about to leave Niles at the altar as well.

And at the same time declaring that Daphne was the real love of his life, ruining yet another of his relationships in the process...

Never thought of Niles treatment of Donny either, strange...

As to your first post: it is not uncommon (in women?) to begrudge their ex partners new relationship, even if they initiated the break-up. Little-Princess behaviour.

[frasier floyd]

Hi Pistol, I'm sorry if I offended you. Maybe if I elaborate you'll understand my perspective better. I agree that Daphne and Donnie were a better couple than Daphne and Niles, which felt quickly forced to me after so many years. With Donnie and Daphne, I guess I just didn't feel any chemistry between them. I'm not sure if this was due to the pairing of the actor/actress or their characters. Maybe if we had witnessed some romance between them it would've reinforced their relationship for me. Instead, we miss their relationship beginning (we just see them together at the cafe after the fact), and then hear more about their solo time together and their feelings for each other rather than experiencing it. Does that make more sense?

On a more superficial note, people do tend to date people who look like them, so I don't think it's entirely nonsensical to think their appearances make them an unbelievable couple; I don't find Daphne particularly striking, either, but besides being taller and thinner (and considered better looking by most standards) than Donnie, she also appears to be much younger. However, those opposite couples definitely happen in real life, they're just less common, so the pair's lack of emotional chemistry makes them see even more unbelievable for me.

Daphne and Joe felt most believable and realistic to me, even though we didn't see them together much at all compared to the other two men. At least we saw the sparks when they met in Frasier's apartment, and some intimacy of them waking up together in bed and in their kiss goodbye the morning Joe overslept there.

And Eddie, it's definitely true that people begrudge their ex's new relationships, even after moving on. I just thought Daphne was supposed to be totally over him, and so this kind of behavior was surprising to me when I noticed it. She just seemed a little jealous of his attention, but I know that's just my opinion.

[PistolPoet]

Hi Pistol, I'm sorry if I offended you. Maybe if I elaborate you'll understand my perspective better. I agree that Daphne and Donnie were a better couple than Daphne and Niles, which felt quickly forced to me after so many years. With Donnie and Daphne, I guess I just didn't feel any chemistry between them. I'm not sure if this was due to the pairing of the actor/actress or their characters. Maybe if we had witnessed some romance between them it would've reinforced their relationship for me. Instead, we miss their relationship beginning (we just see them together at the cafe after the fact), and then hear more about their solo time together and their feelings for each other rather than experiencing it. Does that make more sense?

On a more superficial note, people do tend to date people who look like them, so I don't think it's entirely nonsensical to think their appearances make them an unbelievable couple; I don't find Daphne particularly striking, either, but besides being taller and thinner (and considered better looking by most standards) than Donnie, she also appears to be much younger. However, those opposite couples definitely happen in real life, they're just less common, so the pair's lack of emotional chemistry makes them see even more unbelievable for me.

Daphne and Joe felt most believable and realistic to me, even though we didn't see them together much at all compared to the other two men. At least we saw the sparks when they met in Frasier's apartment, and some intimacy of them waking up together in bed and in their kiss goodbye the morning Joe overslept there.

And Eddie, it's definitely true that people begrudge their ex's new relationships, even after moving on. I just thought Daphne was supposed to be totally over him, and so this kind of behavior was surprising to me when I noticed it. She just seemed a little jealous of his attention, but I know that's just my opinion.

You didn't offend me one bit! I was just disagreeing, and sorry if my tone was too harsh .
I definitely agree with what you said about Daphne and Joe, they looked very natural together and I was sorry that their relationship hadn't lasted longer, I liked him a lot.

[Patrick]

...On a more superficial note, people do tend to date people who look like them,..

Tend, maybe, but there are many exceptions, two days ago I was in a night club and there was a stunning woman much taller than the man she was with and he seemed to have her wrapped around his finger. Methinks that man must have some hidden talents because he really wasn't much to look at in addition to being short... He didn't seem to be particularly rich either, in case you were wondering. So if it happens in real life then why the hell not in a sit com?

[frasier floyd]

It definitely happens in real life! I know of at least one couple in which the woman is much more attractive and charming than the man (who, by the way, are wrong for each other for totally unrelated reasons). I didn't mean to imply that this never happens in real life, just that it's less common. Weren't there studies done on the subject of mating/ people attracting and being attracted to people similar to them? If I have time I'll look into it, but I remember discussing it in a psychology or sociology class a few years ago. From what I remember, it was subconscious rather than conscious discrimination.

Anyway, if I'd seen or felt any chemistry/intimacy between Daphne and Donnie, it would have been much easier to overcome any physical differences between them. I just never saw any love between them.

[TylerRodan]

It definitely happens in real life! I know of at least one couple in which the woman is much more attractive and charming than the man (who, by the way, are wrong for each other for totally unrelated reasons). I didn't mean to imply that this never happens in real life, just that it's less common. Weren't there studies done on the subject of mating/ people attracting and being attracted to people similar to them? If I have time I'll look into it, but I remember discussing it in a psychology or sociology class a few years ago. From what I remember, it was subconscious rather than conscious discrimination.

Anyway, if I'd seen or felt any chemistry/intimacy between Daphne and Donnie, it would have been much easier to overcome any physical differences between them. I just never saw any love between them.

Yep, its called the Matching Hypothesis, research mostly done by Elaine Hatfield. Part of the hypothesis though, is that if there is inequality, the "lesser" partner has other things to compensate, so it all turns out equal.

Not that differences in attractiveness is new on Frasier, I think it's been pretty well documented that both F and N date women who are much more attractive than they are. But I agree with you about Daphne and Donny, I never got any sense of passion or intimacy between the two of them.

[Roverman]

It definitely happens in real life! I know of at least one couple in which the woman is much more attractive and charming than the man (who, by the way, are wrong for each other for totally unrelated reasons). I didn't mean to imply that this never happens in real life, just that it's less common. Weren't there studies done on the subject of mating/ people attracting and being attracted to people similar to them? If I have time I'll look into it, but I remember discussing it in a psychology or sociology class a few years ago. From what I remember, it was subconscious rather than conscious discrimination.

Anyway, if I'd seen or felt any chemistry/intimacy between Daphne and Donnie, it would have been much easier to overcome any physical differences between them. I just never saw any love between them.

Yep, its called the Matching Hypothesis, research mostly done by Elaine Hatfield. Part of the hypothesis though, is that if there is inequality, the "lesser" partner has other things to compensate, so it all turns out equal.

Not that differences in attractiveness is new on Frasier, I think it's been pretty well documented that both F and N date women who are much more attractive than they are. But I agree with you about Daphne and Donny, I never got any sense of passion or intimacy between the two of them.

Yet Maris (from what we know about her) and Lilith are hardly oil paintings!

[frasier floyd]

It definitely happens in real life! I know of at least one couple in which the woman is much more attractive and charming than the man (who, by the way, are wrong for each other for totally unrelated reasons). I didn't mean to imply that this never happens in real life, just that it's less common. Weren't there studies done on the subject of mating/ people attracting and being attracted to people similar to them? If I have time I'll look into it, but I remember discussing it in a psychology or sociology class a few years ago. From what I remember, it was subconscious rather than conscious discrimination.

Anyway, if I'd seen or felt any chemistry/intimacy between Daphne and Donnie, it would have been much easier to overcome any physical differences between them. I just never saw any love between them.

Yep, its called the Matching Hypothesis, research mostly done by Elaine Hatfield. Part of the hypothesis though, is that if there is inequality, the "lesser" partner has other things to compensate, so it all turns out equal.

Not that differences in attractiveness is new on Frasier, I think it's been pretty well documented that both F and N date women who are much more attractive than they are. But I agree with you about Daphne and Donny, I never got any sense of passion or intimacy between the two of them.

Thanks Tyler! I've definitely noticed that Frasier tends to go after and even date the most stunning women, while he is just average (in my opinion). But, as the information you posted explains, the less attractive partner can possesses other significant qualities to balance things out. In Frasier's case, those qualities might be prestige, success, money, and self-confidence.

In my opinion, Lilith is quite beautiful! However, yes Maris does sound like some sort of string bean mountain troll with her brittle bones and webbed fingers! I think Niles is the more handsome of the two brothers so it's a little surprising that he didn't have better luck dating. I mean how many dates do we see him go on compared to Frasier?

[Patrick]

...Yet Maris (from what we know about her) and Lilith are hardly oil paintings!

I disagree, Lilith is a babe, as has been shown many times, as Frasier once said "Oh mama!"

[Patrick]

...so it's a little surprising that he didn't have better luck dating. I mean how many dates do we see him go on compared to Frasier?

It's not surprising, unlike Frasier who can sleep with beautiful women, when he doesn't manage to ruin everything by saying something stupid that is, Niles is numbingly shy around them (cf. the way he behaves around Lorna for example or the woman he mistakes for the stripper that Frasier has told him to interview, how in hell could Frasier have imagined that Niles could do that is anybody's guess.)

[frasier floyd]

Aww, that's true. Niles' shyness is part of what makes him sort of charming to me, though. I wonder how he started seeing/sleeping with that woman in Frasier's building (who turned out to be married). She was beautiful and confident, though clearly had a problem with cheating... maybe she pounced him! Maybe his love for Daphne distracted him from trying to engage with most other women anyway.

[hansenkd]

I do have some issues with "Visions of Daphne." I've always believed that Niles should have just simply declared himself in that episode, regardless of the visions. He would have then given her the choice before all the heartache. Frasier and Martin were right that he shouldn't have tried to make himself fit into the vision, but I think they should have encouraged him to declare himself.

Truth is, he should have declared himself way back in "First Date." Obviously well before she had her chance to make the speech about "never dating anybody going through a divorce," which, ironically, was only meant to comfort him after the Phyllis fraud had played out.

"It's my own fault. I had chance after chance to tell her how I feel, and I always kept my mouth shut--until tonight when I probably should have."

Donny and Daphne a more believable couple than Niles and Daphne?! Sacrilege! Infidel! I defy you, and use the ending of "Moons Over Seattle" as my weapon!!

[frasier floyd]

I do have some issues with "Visions of Daphne." I've always believed that Niles should have just simply declared himself in that episode, regardless of the visions. He would have then given her the choice before all the heartache. Frasier and Martin were right that he shouldn't have tried to make himself fit into the vision, but I think they should have encouraged him to declare himself.

Truth is, he should have declared himself way back in "First Date." Obviously well before she had her chance to make the speech about "never dating anybody going through a divorce," which, ironically, was only meant to comfort him after the Phyllis fraud had played out.

"It's my own fault. I had chance after chance to tell her how I feel, and I always kept my mouth shut--until tonight when I probably should have."

Donny and Daphne a more believable couple than Niles and Daphne?! Sacrilege! Infidel! I defy you, and use the ending of "Moons Over Seattle" as my weapon!!

I agree that Niles should have told Daphne about his feelings sooner. I understand how timid he can be, especially around Daphne, but certainly as a professional psychiatrist he could have thought of a better way to handle the timing of that conversation. (Though I know the Crane boys are notorious for their astonishing lack of insight when it comes to their own lives )

Also, reading this back now, I'm not sure why I said Daphne was more believable with Donny than with Niles. In my opinion, neither couple is believable. Daphne and Niles felt forced to me after all those years of her only seeing him as Dr. Crane. I know there were a few episodes with her 'looking' at Niles after finding out about his feelings, but to go from that to them being a loving couple so quickly never gave me time to get on board. I was glad for Niles but couldn't see Daphne's part in the relationship. I thought she was most believable with Joe. It's very strange that after so many years in Seattle Daphne never had many dates or boyfriends; there's no way Frasier should've had more!

[PistolPoet]

Donny and Daphne a more believable couple than Niles and Daphne?! Sacrilege! Infidel! I defy you, and use the ending of "Moons Over Seattle" as my weapon!!

And I step forth to parry your attack, scoundrel!

Sure, Niles and Daphne had some romantic moments, but all of them were integral to the plot and had to happen (Something Borrowed, Someone Blue, Taking Liberties, Moons Over Seattle, Daphne Returns). The rest of the time, if you see them objectively, like any ordinary couple, they lack passion and, at the same time, are terribly cheesy. The beginning of And the Dish Ran Away With the Spoon (which I've already complained about), is cringeworthy, when you see them kiss in the kitchen, it's just so rigid and unromantic. Then there's Sliding Frasiers, with Niles wearing that ridiculous t-shirt and dragging Daphne into the living room to show how it's adorable that she has sauce on her nose. If they were a real couple I knew, I'd be sorely tempted to slap them.
Also, they have nothing in common. I know people say opposites attract, but we don't really see that they're attracted to each other because they're different. To me it seems more like the writers worked around their differences and ignored them most of the time, except in Daphne Returns. Daphne reads things like "Slow Tango in South Seattle" and Honey Snow books; it's ok if she doesn't like the opera, but she actually fell asleep and snored in the middle of one, not even Martin did that. Niles is a huge snob and an elitist; based on what we know about him from the start of the show, I'd actually expect him to be embarrassed to take someone like Daphne out with his society friends, knowing she can't even talk about the same things as them. Of course, their relationship obviously works, so I guess it's implied that they've managed to learn from each other and adopt some of the other's interests, but I'm still saying that Daphne and Donny seem like a more effortlessly matched couple, and I think we would have seen more naturally romantic scenes with them, if they'd got more screen time together in season 7.

Daphne and Niles felt forced to me after all those years of her only seeing him as Dr. Crane. I know there were a few episodes with her 'looking' at Niles after finding out about his feelings, but to go from that to them being a loving couple so quickly never gave me time to get on board. I was glad for Niles but couldn't see Daphne's part in the relationship. I thought she was most believable with Joe. It's very strange that after so many years in Seattle Daphne never had many dates or boyfriends; there's no way Frasier should've had more!

Agreed!

[hansenkd]

Donny and Daphne a more believable couple than Niles and Daphne?! Sacrilege! Infidel! I defy you, and use the ending of "Moons Over Seattle" as my weapon!!

And I step forth to parry your attack, scoundrel!

Sure, Niles and Daphne had some romantic moments, but all of them were integral to the plot and had to happen (Something Borrowed, Someone Blue, Taking Liberties, Moons Over Seattle, Daphne Returns). The rest of the time, if you see them objectively, like any ordinary couple, they lack passion and, at the same time, are terribly cheesy. The beginning of And the Dish Ran Away With the Spoon (which I've already complained about), is cringeworthy, when you see them kiss in the kitchen, it's just so rigid and unromantic. Then there's Sliding Frasiers, with Niles wearing that ridiculous t-shirt and dragging Daphne into the living room to show how it's adorable that she has sauce on her nose. If they were a real couple I knew, I'd be sorely tempted to slap them.
Also, they have nothing in common. I know people say opposites attract, but we don't really see that they're attracted to each other because they're different. To me it seems more like the writers worked around their differences and ignored them most of the time, except in Daphne Returns. Daphne reads things like "Slow Tango in South Seattle" and Honey Snow books; it's ok if she doesn't like the opera, but she actually fell asleep and snored in the middle of one, not even Martin did that. Niles is a huge snob and an elitist; based on what we know about him from the start of the show, I'd actually expect him to be embarrassed to take someone like Daphne out with his society friends, knowing she can't even talk about the same things as them. Of course, their relationship obviously works, so I guess it's implied that they've managed to learn from each other and adopt some of the other's interests, but I'm still saying that Daphne and Donny seem like a more effortlessly matched couple, and I think we would have seen more naturally romantic scenes with them, if they'd got more screen time together in season 7.

But you seem to be focusing a lot on Season 8, where, except for DR (in which they tried to rectify a lot of the miscues) it just didn't work. A lot of the problem in S8 did stem from Jane's pregnancy, and everyone knows that. By S9, it all pretty much fell into place (First Temptation was a watershed episode for that). And for all of S10's flaws, it did get Niles and Daphne right (had Gertrude only not been so ubiquitous). At that point, you even see Daphne starting to buy into the snobbery! Daphne Does Dinner shows some of that, but there are other moments too. They were a lot more believable once they were married. Niles started to roll his eyes at her wacky stories, etc. The heart surgery arc was very heartfelt indeed. She became a bit of a henpecker in S11, mostly in the Maris arc, but she was pregnant.

[Eddie2012]

At that point, you even see Daphne starting to buy into the snobbery! Daphne Does Dinner shows some of that, but there are other moments too. They were a lot more believable once they were married. Niles started to roll his eyes at her wacky stories, etc.

I would not call this a good development though. She truly becomes 'Mrs Niles Crane'. As you said, she morphs into a snob herself and her whacky stories are now frowned upon. It does make the relationship more believable, but whereas I could easily see myself calling early-season-Daphne amongst my friends, I am not sure I wanted to spend time with season-7 to 11-Daphne at all...

[PistolPoet]

But you seem to be focusing a lot on Season 8, where, except for DR (in which they tried to rectify a lot of the miscues) it just didn't work. A lot of the problem in S8 did stem from Jane's pregnancy, and everyone knows that. By S9, it all pretty much fell into place (First Temptation was a watershed episode for that). And for all of S10's flaws, it did get Niles and Daphne right (had Gertrude only not been so ubiquitous). At that point, you even see Daphne starting to buy into the snobbery! Daphne Does Dinner shows some of that, but there are other moments too. They were a lot more believable once they were married. Niles started to roll his eyes at her wacky stories, etc. The heart surgery arc was very heartfelt indeed. She became a bit of a henpecker in S11, mostly in the Maris arc, but she was pregnant.

I am inded focusing on season 8 because it's only fair to do so when comparing Daphne & Niles to Daphne & Donny, since we never got the chance to see what Daphne & Donny would be like if they got married. My biggest problem with Dahne & Niles is that they didn't look believable from the very beginning, when couples usually through a very passionate phase; they just seemed sort of mismatched.
Plus, I don't think Jane's pregnancy had a lot to do with the lack of romance. Yes, the writers had to come up with that overeating story arc and yes, Daphne had to go to the spa, but in the meantime, their relationship should have been handled better. Of course, it didn't help that (and this could be only my own impression) Jane and DHP had no chemistry whatsoever.
I do agree with you that Daphne and Niles became more similar in seasons 9, 10 and 11, and I said that it was sort of implied that they would sooner or later acquire some of each other's interests etc., but still, to me they never seemed nearly as natural as Daphne & Donny or Daphne & Joe.

[frasier floyd]

But you seem to be focusing a lot on Season 8, where, except for DR (in which they tried to rectify a lot of the miscues) it just didn't work. A lot of the problem in S8 did stem from Jane's pregnancy, and everyone knows that. By S9, it all pretty much fell into place (First Temptation was a watershed episode for that). And for all of S10's flaws, it did get Niles and Daphne right (had Gertrude only not been so ubiquitous). At that point, you even see Daphne starting to buy into the snobbery! Daphne Does Dinner shows some of that, but there are other moments too. They were a lot more believable once they were married. Niles started to roll his eyes at her wacky stories, etc. The heart surgery arc was very heartfelt indeed. She became a bit of a henpecker in S11, mostly in the Maris arc, but she was pregnant.

I am inded focusing on season 8 because it's only fair to do so when comparing Daphne & Niles to Daphne & Donny, since we never got the chance to see what Daphne & Donny would be like if they got married. My biggest problem with Dahne & Niles is that they didn't look believable from the very beginning, when couples usually through a very passionate phase; they just seemed sort of mismatched.
Plus, I don't think Jane's pregnancy had a lot to do with the lack of romance. Yes, the writers had to come up with that overeating story arc and yes, Daphne had to go to the spa, but in the meantime, their relationship should have been handled better. Of course, it didn't help that (and this could be only my own impression) Jane and DHP had no chemistry whatsoever.
I do agree with you that Daphne and Niles became more similar in seasons 9, 10 and 11, and I said that it was sort of implied that they would sooner or later acquire some of each other's interests etc., but still, to me they never seemed nearly as natural as Daphne & Donny or Daphne & Joe.

I don't think we got to see either couple's relationship blossom from the beginning. We saw Donnie and Daphne meet at Frasier's when he was going over legal questions, and there were zero sparks or signs of interest here (as compared to when she and Joe first saw each other there). The next time we see Donnie and Daphne they're already together at the cafe and mostly just *telling us about* their new relationship rather than exhibiting any real interest or chemistry. I felt this was true for their entire relationship; we saw them together at Frasier's and only *hear* of their romantic dinner date/ weekend at the bed and breakfast, etc, rather than witnessing any of it. At most, we see them talk to one another in a sweet and endearing way, which still wasn't enough to convince me of their love/relationship/ engagement. Where were the passionate moments and kisses like the one she shared with Joe?

With Donnie, there is also the issue of him being Roz's ex-boyfriend. In the real world, exes are off limits to friends! This would be especially true with Donnie since he had once wanted to marry Roz, and later she considered him a serious love that got away. I don't know why this issue of Daphne dating her ex was ignored on the show, but I think it should have been a topic of interest at least once, either between the couple or Roz and Daphne. This seems to be just one of a few times I can think of where Daphne mistreats Roz, who is expected to just accept it. One example that comes to mind is Daphne insisting on wearing Roz's gown before a ball, leaving Roz with her short skimpy dress. (I know this was because there was a bleach spot on Daphne's dress, but I didn't think that was Roz's fault; yet she is the good sport and wears the short dress in order to placate Daphne so they could enjoy their evening). A huge example is when Daphne says Roz's baby can "stand to lose a few pounds", a horrible insult both to healthy Alice and to Roz as a mother. Again, Roz is the good sport, just saying "She's a healthy baby!", and leaves it at that. (Now if this were real life, Daphne's remark definitely could have ended the friendship right there). When at the cabin and Daphne suddenly remembers that Donnie and Roz used to date, Roz made a gesture not to worry about it.

With Daphne and Niles, he obviously loved her throughout the show, but she never showed any sign of interest in him whatsoever. Even when he expressed his feelings to her and they kissed after dancing together, Daphne assumed Niles was acting- as if it never even occurred to her that he meant it. Maybe she knew him so well as Dr. Crane/ Frasier's brother that she was unable to see him as just a man. Either way, this lack of interest on her part is a main red flag in their relationship for me. She never acknowledges him as a man until she learns of his feelings for her, which I don't believe is enough to create requited feelings in her. To me, it seemed more like learning of Niles' feelings for her flipped a switch in Daphne, allowing her to see him as a man and therefore a viable love option. In these episodes where she's 'noticing' him for the first time, she suddenly realizes she now loves him enough to leave her fiancee at the last minute (a red flag of indecision about who she loved- if either of them).

I think there were points along the show that Daphne and Niles seemed sincerely happy together, such as during his proposal to her or somewhat during the Caribbean vacation. I just don't think there was enough chemistry during the majority of their time together; as said already, it could potentially be due to lack of romantic chemistry between Jane and DHP, but I just didn't see it or believe it. Maybe because of the actors' reluctance, we don't see this couple share a passionate kiss like hers with Joe either. The time I remember seeing them in bed together was just during Daphne's turbulent sleeping, where she rolled around hitting Niles and knocking him out of bed (compared to seeing her wake up next to Joe after a night of romance). We see Frasier topless and in bed with his many lovers all the time, so why not with either of these relationships? They just didn't do it for me.

[Ariel]

I have to admit that I always felt the relationship between Niles and Daphne was carried by the acting skills of the two actors involved and had no chemistry at all to help it. It says a lot for their skill that we believe it at all! I always felt that perhaps the one thing that would have really attracted Daphne's character to Niles was his shyness and gentleness, because after all she was English and the American men are quite brash in comparison to English ones.
The reason Frasier had so many relationships - might have been because he went for looks above all!!

[frasier floyd]

I have to admit that I always felt the relationship between Niles and Daphne was carried by the acting skills of the two actors involved and had no chemistry at all to help it. It says a lot for their skill that we believe it at all! I always felt that perhaps the one thing that would have really attracted Daphne's character to Niles was his shyness and gentleness, because after all she was English and the American men are quite brash in comparison to English ones.
The reason Frasier had so many relationships - might have been because he went for looks above all!!

This is just my opinion, but I never sensed that Daphne was attracted to Niles for his shyness and gentleness since she wasn't attracted to other men with those qualities. Donnie definitely wasn't shy! He was more gentle towards her after they were dating, but I don't think she could have known that side of him before their relationship. Joe wasn't particularly shy or gentle either. I think the main reason Daphne became interested in Niles was just his interest in her!