Donnie and Daphne...

[frasier floyd]

Also, 'Frasier and his relationships' deserves a whole separate topic

[Eddie2012]

With Donnie, there is also the issue of him being Roz's ex-boyfriend. In the real world, exes are off limits to friends!.

And what a stupid rule that is imho . If my friend had been betrayed and hurt, it would be a mean thing of me to pursue him shortly afterwards, true. But Donnie and Roz didn't dump each other, they parted because they were at different stages in their lives that were incompatible. And I got the feeling it was Roz herself who put the final coffin in that relationship. What a selfish thing to do to deny two people their happiness because years ago I made the decision to leave my boyfriend. People move on. And sometimes have to let go...

She never acknowledges him as a man until she learns of his feelings for her, which I don't believe is enough to create requited feelings in her.

And yet it does - this part I find most unbelievable. Too much too fast.

I have to admit that I always felt the relationship between Niles and Daphne was carried by the acting skills of the two actors involved and had no chemistry at all to help it.

To be honest, I don't think they carried it well at all. Especially DHP, who is sometimes hailed as the ultimate actor on this panel , is most unconvincing in his role as lover. Don't get me wrong, I like him a lot and think he's very talented, but displaying (romantic) passion is the one department where he seems to fail miserably.

[frasier floyd]

It may not be an enforced rule, but it's definitely an expectation between friends. There may be some exceptions, as you say, like if both people in the first relationship realized they were incompatible and parted without hurt/ lingering feelings. For most people, however, I think there would be an issue. Of course, that would be up to the person to decide whether their new relationship would be worth potentially ruining an older friendship.

I think DHP is an excellent actor too, but I agree that his approach to romance and passion often leaves much to be desired. I think his interest in Daphne was most sincere while he admired her from afar without having to engage in any physical and reciprocated intimacy.

[PistolPoet]

I don't think we got to see either couple's relationship blossom from the beginning. We saw Donnie and Daphne meet at Frasier's when he was going over legal questions, and there were zero sparks or signs of interest here (as compared to when she and Joe first saw each other there). The next time we see Donnie and Daphne they're already together at the cafe and mostly just *telling us about* their new relationship rather than exhibiting any real interest or chemistry. I felt this was true for their entire relationship; we saw them together at Frasier's and only *hear* of their romantic dinner date/ weekend at the bed and breakfast, etc, rather than witnessing any of it. At most, we see them talk to one another in a sweet and endearing way, which still wasn't enough to convince me of their love/relationship/ engagement. Where were the passionate moments and kisses like the one she shared with Joe?

That's all true, Daphne & Donny weren't particularly passionate, either, but the scene at Nervosa in To Tell the Truth when Niles and Frasier see them together for the first time imo was quite tender. And the breakfast scene at Frasier's in Shutout in Seattle, I don't know, they just looked more believable to me. So to me they just seemed more like a real couple, but still nowhere near Daphne & Joe. Another thing which I forgot, I honestly think that Donny's proposal was much better than Niles's. Even though Niles had to improvise, what he came up with to me wasn't as moving or as heartfelt as what Donny said and how he said it.

With Donnie, there is also the issue of him being Roz's ex-boyfriend. In the real world, exes are off limits to friends! This would be especially true with Donnie since he had once wanted to marry Roz, and later she considered him a serious love that got away. I don't know why this issue of Daphne dating her ex was ignored on the show, but I think it should have been a topic of interest at least once, either between the couple or Roz and Daphne. This seems to be just one of a few times I can think of where Daphne mistreats Roz, who is expected to just accept it. One example that comes to mind is Daphne insisting on wearing Roz's gown before a ball, leaving Roz with her short skimpy dress. (I know this was because there was a bleach spot on Daphne's dress, but I didn't think that was Roz's fault; yet she is the good sport and wears the short dress in order to placate Daphne so they could enjoy their evening). A huge example is when Daphne says Roz's baby can "stand to lose a few pounds", a horrible insult both to healthy Alice and to Roz as a mother. Again, Roz is the good sport, just saying "She's a healthy baby!", and leaves it at that. (Now if this were real life, Daphne's remark definitely could have ended the friendship right there). When at the cabin and Daphne suddenly remembers that Donnie and Roz used to date, Roz made a gesture not to worry about it.

Agreed. If it had been one of Roz's "till dawn do us part" relationships, it might have been fine. But it seems to have been much more serious, and Roz would have right to be hurt, or, even if she wasn't, Daphne should have at least asked her if it was OK. But I guess the writers didn't want to make an entire subplot to fit that in.
And the gown thing annoyed me, too. Not only is it obvious that the two of them don't wear the same size, but really, Roz was trying to be nice and have Daphne's clothes cleaned. If I was Daphne, I'd rather wear the short dress myself, no matter what I looked like in it, than make Roz wear it.

With Daphne and Niles, he obviously loved her throughout the show, but she never showed any sign of interest in him whatsoever. Even when he expressed his feelings to her and they kissed after dancing together, Daphne assumed Niles was acting- as if it never even occurred to her that he meant it. Maybe she knew him so well as Dr. Crane/ Frasier's brother that she was unable to see him as just a man. Either way, this lack of interest on her part is a main red flag in their relationship for me. She never acknowledges him as a man until she learns of his feelings for her, which I don't believe is enough to create requited feelings in her. To me, it seemed more like learning of Niles' feelings for her flipped a switch in Daphne, allowing her to see him as a man and therefore a viable love option. In these episodes where she's 'noticing' him for the first time, she suddenly realizes she now loves him enough to leave her fiancee at the last minute (a red flag of indecision about who she loved- if either of them).

I think there were points along the show that Daphne and Niles seemed sincerely happy together, such as during his proposal to her or somewhat during the Caribbean vacation. I just don't think there was enough chemistry during the majority of their time together; as said already, it could potentially be due to lack of romantic chemistry between Jane and DHP, but I just didn't see it or believe it. Maybe because of the actors' reluctance, we don't see this couple share a passionate kiss like hers with Joe either. The time I remember seeing them in bed together was just during Daphne's turbulent sleeping, where she rolled around hitting Niles and knocking him out of bed (compared to seeing her wake up next to Joe after a night of romance). We see Frasier topless and in bed with his many lovers all the time, so why not with either of these relationships? They just didn't do it for me.

Exactly. Even when they talk about their sex life, I don't buy it. When Daphne said (I think it was in Crock Tales) that they'd had sex, then Niles just "flipped her over" and continued, I think I laughed out loud. No way would Niles do that.

[frasier floyd]

What! I don't remember Niles saying he just "flipped her over"! Wow, that's so bizarre. Who talks like that about their loved ones...

[PistolPoet]

What! I don't remember Niles saying he just "flipped her over"! Wow, that's so bizarre. Who talks like that about their loved ones...

Daphne said that to Roz .

[frasier floyd]

Oh! Ok, slightly less bizarre then haha. But yes I agree that there's no way I can see Niles doing such a thing. I'm not sure if he could lift her enough to flip her!

[frasier floyd]

Also, I'm glad you were bothered by the dress scene as well, Pistol! I remember those little things, even if they're meant more for laughs than for serious consideration.