Best and Worst of Season - 7

[Mr Blue Sky]

S6 generated as much debate as I assumed it would! S7 is possibly a more consistent season but for me it doesn't reach the peaks S6 did in a few memorable, classic episodes (remember S6 contains my favourite episode, so I'm always going to rate it highly! [:]:-)[/:] )

Anyway, on to business. Here are my choices:-

Best - Something Borrowed, Someone Blue. The wonderful Keenan/Lloyd penned season 7 finale is the most viewed episode in the history of it's US run (thanks for the info Ali!). This episode sums up season 7 perfectly for me and as I explain why it may sound as though I'm trashing the season which I certainly don't mean to. The episode packs a very powerful emotional punch, but actually isn't very high on laughs. I thoroughly enjoyed the drama of the ep and was sat with my heart in my stomach desperately hoping Niles and Daphne would finally get it together. The final scene in the Winebago was so joyous I actually felt on a high for the next few days that these 2 characters that I'd grown to love and care about had finally got what they wanted. Beautifully conceived, beautifully written, beautifully acted. Now here's my problem. As much as I enjoyed this episode and this season (I have to keep stressing that!) the main storyline was much more emotionally driven than in previous years. Ali said on the S6 thread that S7 had more direction because the writers knew how they wanted to end the season. True. But didn't you also feel a little manipulated by this? The character of Mel was introduced solely for us to hate her, thereby squeezing every last drop of sympathy for Niles when he dumps her for Daphne! The latter part of Season 11 had that feel to it with the introduction of Charlotte (I felt her character was 'squeezed in' when the producers announced S11 would be the final season), but that's for a later thread. In short, the whole of season 7 had a 'soap' feel to it for me. A highly enjoyable, immensly funny soap, but soap nonetheless. I would describe it as similar to 'Friends' in this regard. Friends relies heavily on 'cliffhangers' and relationship 'will they/won't they's', and I just had that same feeling for S7 of Frasier. It was still miles in front of anything else around (Friends included! [:]:-))[/:] ) and obviously surpassed the S8/9/10 disasters, but I'll always rank the season below S6 + S11 for the reasons I've given (S1-S5 being unsurpassable).

Worst - The Dog That Rocks The Cradle I didn't hate this ep as much as some other fans, I just thought it was a little flat and low on laughs compared to other eps in the season. Seeing Bulldog reduced to the role of 'Psycho' after being a mainstay of the first six seasons was a bit sad. I'm just glad it wasn't Dan Butler's final performance in the role.

Ok, so there are my thoughts. I know I'll get some stick for my views above but I have to stress again: I really enjoyed the season, but in a slightly different way to how I normally enjoy it. I'm sure some people will equate my comparrison of S7 to 'Friends' as the worst insult I can possibly give, but please understand that I'm only comparing how the season is structured with the big buildup and the emotional ending. Frasier is light years ahead of any contemparary sitcom.

[Dan]

I enjoyed season seven more then six but at the same time it also felt like Season One Redux a little bit.

The writers did not have everything planned out in advance, but they were conscious of keeping the the show more upbeat from the rather dark and drama filled season six, given that was the common critique they recieved from fans and critics alike.

The character of Mel was not introduced soley for the purpose of somebody for the audience to hate and to end up rooting for the Niles/Daphne pairing all the more. Because at this point Lloyd and Keenen were still undecided on whether or not they were going to put Niles and Daphne together. She(Mel)was introduced as a legitimate love intrest for Niles and one that was going to possibly help him move on with his life. In the begining she started out ok and fairly likeable. She geniunely cared about Niles and she gave him confidence in himself. But as time went on, roughly half way through the season Lloyd and Keenen came to the decision that Niles/Daphne had to happen. This is when they started making her more insufferable and more unlikeable so that when Niles would eventually leave her for Daphne, it would hopfully not reflect as poorly on his character.

A Few favorites of mine

SBSB
Back Talk
Momma Mia
Dark Side of the Moon

[Mr Blue Sky]

Some interesting comments as ever from you Dan, although we never seem to agree in our assessments (maybe that's a good thing?). By the way, how do you know Lloyd/Keenan hadn't made up their minds about Niles/Daphne until after Mel was introduced? Have you read this somewhere or is that just your opinion of what happened? Or are you actually 'Frasier' writer Dan O'Shannon, and have inside info??? [:]:-))[/:] I saw an interview with JK about S7 in which he said that the Niles/Daphne relationship had to happen, as they couldn't keep torturing the viewer. He never mentioned at what point the writing staff came to this decision. I'd be interested to know where you get your information from Dan, it seems you have the inside track when it comes to Frasier info, particularly about the writers. I'm beginning to think you ARE Dan O'Shannon, especially given your staunch defence of 'Frasier's Edge', which DO'S co-wrote...

[Sam]

Looking over the episode synopsis's of Season 7, I'd forgotten how much I actually enjoyed this season. I personally think it's on par with the first 5 seasons.

My favourite episode would probably be 'Something About Dr.Mary.' Brilliant guest stars and a wonderful plot and sub plot. However, I also adore 'Out With Dad' and 'Everyone's a Critic.' I could add even more I think are brilliant.

There are a few episodes that are not so clear in my mind, so I can't really pick a worst episode.

[Sideshow Meg]

Something Borrowed, Something Blue is my favourite of S7, and Dark Side of the Moon, esp. with the arrival of Simon (!)

[Jocelyn]

Season 7 is my favourite after the unsurpassable Seasons 1-5 so there were quite a few contenders for best episode; "Father Of The Bride", "Rivals", "Back Talk", "Out With Dad", "To Thine Old Self Be True", "The Three Faces Of Frasier", "Dark Side Of The Moon", "Something Borrowed, Someone Blue"...however, after mulling it over I finally decided to go with...

"Something About Dr. Mary". A sparkling episode undoubtedly stolen by Kim Coles' wonderful performance as Dr. Mary ("OK? OK!") but credit must go to Jay Kogen for tackling the subject of race in a way that was both hilarious and perfectly judged (if this were a S8-10 episode it would probably have been horribly heavy-handed). Loved the subplot about Niles kickboxing which leads to the scene where he boots Daphne up the bum (painful but funny!) as well as the wonderful running joke where an extra presenter keeps appearing on the poster for Frasier's show on the side of the bus. However the highlight has to be Frasier's hysterical role-playing of Mary ("I don't think so!!!"), a strong contender for Kelsey Grammer's best ever performance. "God bless your guilty white ass", says Mary at the end of the episode. I couldn't agree more

Least favourite: "The Dog That Rocks The Cradle". This is the only episode of this season I don't really enjoy watching much. There are a few minor laughs at the start and Dan Butler does his best to liven up the proceedings but it all seems rather dull and out of character and a very strange parting shot (for two years anyway) for the Bulldog character.

[Dan]

Actually I'm not Dan O'Shannon. I wouldn't want to be the guy who was in charge of Frasier's(S8-10)dark ages. This may sound mean but he really did drop the ball with S8 and onward. It's too bad because the man did good work for The Bob Newhart Show and Cheers. I read an interview with with Christopher Lloyd and Jane Leeves in which he spoke of them(Keenen&Llyod)as carefully considering it but were woried about potentially killing the "golden goose" by bringing them together because common sense dictates that once to you end the will they won't they scenario intrest usually wanes. This does hold true almost all of the time because usually the writers lack an creativity to do anything with the "new couple". Saddly Niles and Daphne overall were not an exception to the rule like they could have and should have been with the creative team of seasons 1-7. Most of their interaction in the begining of S8 was painfull to watch most of the time. To be fair I will say that Jane's pregnancy really hurt this aspect but at the same time I think the creative team from season 1-7 under the leadership of Keenen and Lloyd would have salvaged it. The interesting thing about that interview was that while Lloyd was very iffy on the Niles/Daphne pairing, Jane was all for it and said if it was up to her that it would happen. But I think both Keenen and Lloyd eventually came to terms with the fact that they would probably have a riot on their hands if they didn't finally do something with the two. But the ironic part of the whole thing was that their(Keenen&Lloyd)understandable concern about what would happen to the dynamics of the show with Niles and Daphne being a couple became irrelevent because they left the show at the end of season seven and would not be there to supervise they new dynamics that would come from this monuemental shift. To this day I wonder why they left the show givin how much they fretted over that story arc. Its like going to a movie that you've been wanting to see for a long time, watching the movie until the climax and then walking out of the theater before seeing how it ends.

[Ali 75]

Aww B.N, I had a feeling you'd be outnumbered here as S7 seems to be held in high regard by many. I'm undecided whether I prefer this season to S11, it's a close run thing for me. Having re-watched S7 again recently, I have to say (try to contain your amazement!) that it gets better with each watch. I can honesly say that there are only two episodes that I don't like and at least 15 that I think are excellent. I can't agree with your opinion that the Mel/Donny storyline was too contrived/manipulated, they were introduced in S6, so couldn't you say the same about that season? They certainly made their mark during S6 and it was fairly obvious why they had been brought in.

As others have said, I just thought it was a much funnier season, Frasier can do dramedy better than anyone, but not when it overshadows much of the season like it did with S6 and S8. I also don't think that the 'classics' are particularly plentiful during S6 either, I think there are more in S7, but again we will have to agree to disagree[:];-)[/:]

Worst Episode: Only two for consideration here, 'Radio Wars', a childish W&G style effort, only saved by Frasier's "I'm in the mood for love, as long as you're near me" - but the undisputed 'winner' is 'The Dog That Rocks The Cradle', every scene was a let-down, such a shame as Peri was so under-used and deserved another 'Roz and The Schnoz' kind of episode, sadly she didn't get it with this.


Favourite Episode: SBSB was memorable and done well, Morning Becomes Entertainment had me howling with laughter, especially when Frasier started doing his impressions and Leo the chimp started pelting him with eggs[:]:-}[/:], The Apparent Trap was a good 'Lilith' ep, Back Talk was funny and revealing, RDWRER, although Travels With Martin - lite featured a great performance from John "shag me rotten", "behave" Mahoney!, They're Playing Our Song has one of DHP's best ever lines "the trombone scares me", There's Something About Dr Mary - possibly Kelsey's finest hour, To Thine Old Self Be True, "Officer Nasty!!"......in fact I could mention more, but the winner is, 'Out With Dad', wonderful guest appearances, great one liners and the sight of Martin and Niles coming out (pun intended) of the kitchen holding hands was hysterical. Only Joe Keenan could have written this, it had his class stamped all over it.

I've rambled as usual, but I think Joe and Chris wanted to go out on a high with S7, and although I don't think it is quite up to S1-S5 standards, I think it was very consistent and very funny.

[ToffeeGirl]

Favourite Epiosde: “Out with Dad” again wonderful writing from JK and although on a similar line to season 2s “The Matchmaker” this in my opinion can stand toe to toe with its predecessor. JM was fabulous in this episode, a delight to watch, the icing on the cake for me is when Niles has to pretend to be his boyfriend, I cry with laughter every time.


Worst: Ditto for me “The Dog That Rocks The Cradle”, just dull IMO too few laughs.

Have to agree with Dan re Mel, I too think that she was ok to begin with and was made to be unlikable as the road for N&D eventual get-together was paved. Jane Adams was great in this role and as I have said before I actually think she had pretty good chemistry with DHP. While I was rooting for N&D, had the writers decided to go the other way putting a definite end to the tease, I believe JA would have been a good addition to the cast.
While I love SBSB, I do think that it left quite a mess for season 8 and this contributed to its poor run.

[Ali 75]

I apologise, Mel of course didn't appear until S7, not S6 (I need to start posting at an earlier time when I'm not half asleep!) - but I think Donny was brought in as a love interest for Daphne with a view to that not working out, so I think bringing Mel in when they did was just doing to Niles what they did to Daphne in S6.

[Mr Blue Sky]

I was going to jump in and correct you there over Mel, Ali [:]:-))[/:] She didn't appear until 7.08 - "The Late Dr Crane", which was already a third of the way into the season. I'm prepared to accept what Dan says about Mel being introduced as a genuine love interest for Niles (not simply as a hate figure for the viewer!), as Dan's obviously seen/read more interviews with the cast and crew than I have. I do find it hard to believe that Keenan/Lloyd didn't have S7 planned every step of the way though, suddenly deciding something as monumental as the Niles/Daphne relationship halfway through the season doesn't sound like them, they plan their writing so meticulously. Perhaps they said they hadn't decided about Niles/Daphne during S7 to throw the viewer off the scent (or simply to avoid answering the question!).

Whatever the history of Mel's introduction, I still think S7 had a 'soap' feel to it (can you see where I'm coming from on this Ali?). I enjoyed the season very much, but I'd have hated the 'End Of Season Cliffhanger' to become the norm (as it did in Friends - that's why I stopped watching that show). There was another (much more clumsy) attempt at an EOSC on S10 when Roz left KACL. I think that was Dan O'Shannon's retribution on Keenan/Lloyd after they left the writers in a tough predicament for the start of S8 [:]:-))[/:] Only kidding...or maybe not?

BTW, I expected everyone to give this season a glowing review, and I know I'm in the minority (of 1!) when I say I enjoyed S6 more than S7. But that's more to do with my freakish enjoyment of S6 rather than not enjoying S7. You mentioned about S6 being light on 'classic' episodes Ali, well here's my list:-"Dial M For Martin" ; "How To Bury A Millionaire" ; "Three Valentines" ; "Dinner Party" ; "Dr Nora" ; "Shutout In Seattle". That's 6 genuinely classic episodes. Season 7 had maybe 3 'classics' ("Out With Dad" ; "Morning Becomes Entertainment" ; "SBSB"). Where the seasons differ is that S7 is much more consistently funny than S6, having maybe 15 or so other excellent eps compared to S6's 5 or 10. When S6 was bad, it was S8/9/10 bad, but S7 only had 2 eps in that category. That's what I meant when I said S6 had higher peaks but lower troughs than S7.

Anyhow, I know you're not a man to change your mind Ali my friend so we'll just have to agree to differ as you say [:]:-)[/:]

[Ali 75]

One thing we will agree on my friend is that the mighty reds are indeed living up to their name tonight (praying to Bill, Bob, Joe and Emlyn that B.L don't get 5!!) trying to watch as I type so this post will be even more muddled then recent efforts. As you may have noticed my postings have been even more erratic than usual, I've got tonsillitis and am on medication, I'm already on strong painkillers for another ailment so feeling rather like Frasier in 'Frasier Crane's Day Off', I actually fell down a flight of stairs at work today and didn't feel a thing[:]:-}[/:]

Anyway who cares, I do love the S6 eps you mentioned, with the exception of 'How To Bury A Millionaire which was only average for me. I'd say there were 6 classics at best and S7 had about the same amount, 'Out With Dad', 'SBSB', 'Morning Becomes.....', 'To Thine Old Self Be True, 'Dr Mary' and 'They're Playing Our Song', I also like RDWRER, but I don't think many would consider that to be a 'Classic' as such. Add to that the fact that the other eps were at least good, and as you say there were only 2 bad ones. (Liverpool have just scored again[:]:-))[/:])

I think Lloyd/Keenan will have known how the season was going to end, neither Donny or Mel were the ideal partners for N and D, the fact that they were dumped wasn't seen as being too cruel because I don't think anyone thought they'd end up together anyway. Dan may know more about it, I can't remember offhand. The cliffhanger was unavoidable really, I don't think the writers liked them in general, but this one paid off. NBC put pressure on the writers/producers constantly to 'soap it up a bit', David Lee fumed about this a year or two ago after Zucker and Co wanted more 'deaths, births and weddings'.

By the way you're not in a minority of one at all, B.A and one or two others prefer S6. I think we can agree that they were both worse than S1-S5, but pretty good none-the less.

[Mr Blue Sky]

Interesting comments as ever Ali (ditto your Liverpool running commentary btw! Were' doing great tonight for a change [:]:-))[/:] ). I think that's the main difference between our views Ali (and where we will agree to differ). The S7 eps you mentioned, save for OWD, MBE and SBSB were merely 'very good' eps for me rather than classics. The same is obviously true of your opinion of the S6 eps I mentioned. I'll put this down to my fairly dark sense of humour. I loved seeing Niles in the Shagri-La. I know many fans just felt sorry for Niles but I think some of the best comedy comes from desperate situations, and Frasier & Niles were never too far from that in S6 [:]:-))[/:]

[Mr Blue Sky]

Hope you get better soon btw Ali, you seem to be having a rough time of things at the minute. Just basque in tonight's victory mate. I just heard that if we win the CL and finish outside the top 4 then the team finishing 4th in the Prem (currently Everton!!) will be bumped to the UEFA! If that thought doesn't cheer you up nothing will! I'll lord it over TG if that happens [:]:-))[/:]

[Dan]

"I was going to jump in and correct you there over Mel, Ali She didn't appear until 7.08 - "The Late Dr Crane", which was already a third of the way into the season. I'm prepared to accept what Dan says about Mel being introduced as a genuine love interest for Niles (not simply as a hate figure for the viewer!), as Dan's obviously seen/read more interviews with the cast and crew than I have. I do find it hard to believe that Keenan/Lloyd didn't have S7 planned every step of the way though, suddenly deciding something as monumental as the Niles/Daphne relationship halfway through the season doesn't sound like them, they plan their writing so meticulously. Perhaps they said they hadn't decided about Niles/Daphne during S7 to throw the viewer off the scent (or simply to avoid answering the question!)"


No televison showrunners have an entire season planned meticulously, this includes Keenen and Lloyd. There are always discussions and story meetings every weak where the writers and showrunners meet and talk about potential storylines and where they want to take the show, they also get feedback from the actors as well. You will only usually find two to three story-arcs tops that are planned considerable amount of time ahead of when they film and aire on televison. These are usally done for sweeps periods.

[Mr Blue Sky]

Point taken Dan. I know the writing staff had meetings every week I just found it hard to believe that the main 'driving' storyline of S7 was not conceived of until after Mel was introduced a third of the way into S7. As I've said before Dan, you obviously have the inside track on this and I'm quite prepared to believe what you say, it just seems strange to me. If Mel was indeed introduced as a love interest for Niles then why didn't the writers make her character more likeable?

[Dan]

She started off fine but when they finally made the decision that they were going to go that way that she started becomming more annoying. Its called character assaisination. It's been used since the dawn of time.

[Rodge]

I'm sorry, Dan, but I am totally with BN here. You haven't convinced me that you have 'insider' knowledge about the Mel introduction. I have two reasons why I believe Mel's character was used from the start as a smoke screen to try and make viewers wonder if the Niles/Daphne situation would ever happen.
Firstly, it seemed bleedin obvious as soon as she walked on set.
Secondly, an old friend of mine spent a lot of years in America, I once asked him at the same time as S6 was being shown in the US, whether he knew if Niles and Daphne had got it together yet. His response was something along the lines of "Not yet mate, but they do marry at the end of the next series." He may just have made a dam lucky guess, but it is too much of a coincidence for me!

PS get well soon Ali. I am worried what with you and Shory if this forum has a jinx!!!![:]NUT[/:]

[Ali 75]

Thanks for the good wishes chaps, I have had a bad couple of years health wise, and am on Morphine at the minute, but God it can make you feel high[:]:-}[/:] Wasn't looking for sympathy or anything, just wanted to explain why some of my posts have been muddled to say the least. Hope 'Shory' is OK, haven't been keeping up to date with all the threads so hope it's nothing serious. Yes, B.N a good night, but I can't wish Everton any ill harm (except in the Derby) as my best friend supports them and I occasionally go and watch them - but the stick I'll get if we finish 5th, or lower[:]:-O[/:] might change my mind!

You may well be right about S6 having more classics, but.........maybe that's because the rest of the season was so average that those episodes stood out so much more! At best I'd say S6 had 5, S7 if I was being very harsh would only have 3, *but* the rest of the season was a lot more consistent with only 2 bad ones - S6 had many average/poor eps so either way I'm sticking to my guns.

Dan seems very well informed, but I remember reading various articles from the S7 era, and I clearly remember reading that Jane and DHP were called in by the writers to be told that their characters would be getting together at the end of that season, I think that was very early on in proceedings so I do tend to think that much of it, if not all, was pre-determined. Maybe if Mr Keenan visits again he could clarify. I definitely don't think that Mel and Donny were intended to be anything other than short-term additions to the cast, and according to DHP in an interview he did with The Financial Times (Yes, I know[:]?[/:]) writers start working on scripts in June usually (Frasier started filming in August) so I'm sure the basic premise of the season was more-or-less mapped out, Keenan and Lloyd were leaving, so I doubt that they'd not have the ending planned really. Of course Dan is probably a producer/writer in disguise and I've just talked total cr*p[:]:-}[/:]

One season I definitely *don't* think was mapped out, in fact we were told it wasn't, was S8. Jane's pregnancy caused havoc and I really think that season went haywire from the 3rd episode and didn't recover.

[Mr Blue Sky]

Another bump for the Best and Worst series while I'm in a Frasier mood.

Heh, it's funny to watch this thread go wildly off topic as Ali and I discuss the latest result for Liverpool FC. I also remember reading the mysterious Dan's comments with interest. For a while I wondered if he was actually Mr O'Shannon himself but that theory was blown out of teh water when the actual Dan O'Shannon posted.

I definitely disagree with my 4 year old assessment of SBSB being my favourite of the season. It shows how flat I consider S7 to be when I have to really think about the episodes I enjoyed. Out With Dad is my new choice. As for worst ep, I'll still go with Dog/Rocks as it's a pretty shit ep - I hate what they did to Bulldog there.

[CatNamedRudy]

This is a hard one. I like S7 but it's not an outstanding season like the earlier ones.

There are several episodes that I like though. I think I might have to go with Back Talk as my favorite.

Least favorite definitely goes to The Late Dr. Crane.

I'm a rebel when it comes to The Dog that Rocks the Cradle. I really like it.

[Lil]

Best: RDWRER - Radio Wars - Back Talk - A Tsar Is Born - Whine Club

Least: The Late Dr. Crane - Something About Dr. Mary

[Moon-Crane]

I'd say S7 is worse than S6. Still some decent episodes in there though. Dark Side Of The Moon, Morning Becomes Entertainment, Out With Dad, They're Playing Our Song, The Fight Before Christmas, A Tsar Is Born, Back talk, and Something Borrowed, Someone Blue.

I think Dark Side Of The Moon is maybe my favourite of those.

Some of the worse ones, imo, are Big Crane On Campus, Something About Doctor Mary, Hot Pursuit and The Dog That Rocked The Cradle.

I think i'll go with Big Crane On Campus as there's nothing i can particularly recall standing out from it.

[CatNamedRudy]

I'd say S7 is worse than S6. Still some decent episodes in there though. Dark Side Of The Moon, Morning Becomes Entertainment, Out With Dad, They're Playing Our Song, The Fight Before Christmas, A Tsar Is Born, Back talk, and Something Borrowed, Someone Blue.

I think Dark Side Of The Moon is maybe my favourite of those.

Some of the worse ones, imo, are Big Crane On Campus, Something About Doctor Mary, Hot Pursuit and The Dog That Rocked The Cradle.

I think i'll go with Big Crane On Campus as there's nothing i can particularly recall standing out from it.

I like every one of those episodes!

[AlexT]

I definitely disagree with my 4 year old assessment of SBSB being my favourite of the season. It shows how flat I consider S7 to be when I have to really think about the episodes I enjoyed. Out With Dad is my new choice. As for worst ep, I'll still go with Dog/Rocks as it's a pretty shit ep - I hate what they did to Bulldog there.

I'm currently rewatching S7 on dvd, so for me this is a timely bump! Wholly agree about the Bulldog episode - a poor finale for such a fantastic character!

My favourite is Back Talk. Because it's such a monumental turning-point episode, I think it's easy to forget just how funny the first half of it is! Frasier and the girdle ("...just hook it in the back like a bra") and his sudden love for the chair. Also, I think they handled things in a really classy way with Daphne finding out. Instead of them having an overblown romantic moment, it was just a slip of the tongue and then a "different" exchange between Niles and Daphne at the door.

Subtly done... Agree that Out With Dad is classic too.